Transcript: Howard Wong (1948- )

Preface

The following oral history transcript is the result of an interview with Howard Wong on November 11, 2024. The interviews were recorded at Howard’s home at 126 Varennes Street in San Francisco, California. The interview was conducted and transcribed by John Doxey, manager of the Telegraph Hill Dwellers Oral History Project.

Format: Originally recorded on a Canon XA11 camcorder. Duration is approximately 74 minutes.

Attribution: This interview transcript is property of the Telegraph Hill Dwellers. Quotes, reproductions and excerpts must be cited as follows: Oral history interview with Howard Wong, November 11, 2024, Telegraph Hill Dwellers Oral History Project.

Summary: Born in 1948, Howard Wong is the son of immigrants from southern China, a North Beach native, an architect – and one of the most civically engaged people you’ll ever meet. When Howard’s family moved to Varennes Street in the early 1950s, they were among the first Chinese-Americans to integrate what was then a predominately Italian-American neighborhood. After studying mathematics at San Francisco State University, a string of serendipitous encounters led Howard to the field of architecture and design at UC Berkeley, where he earned a master’s degree in 1975. Howard practiced architecture with several private firms in the Bay Area, including HOK Group and ELS Architecture and Urban Design, before moving to the public sector in the 1980s. As an architect with the City & County of San Francisco’s Bureau of Architecture for 17 years, Howard worked on a broad array of projects, including parking structures at San Francisco International Airport, MUNI maintenance facilities, animal shelter renovations, Candlestick Park stadium renovations, an infant resuscitation room at San Francisco General Hospital and historic renovations of the Conservatory of Flowers, Sharon Building and Spreckels Temple of Music. Since retiring from the city in 2004, Howard has advocated in many ways for public transit, a long-time passion, including helping found SaveMuni and serving on the MTC Policy Advisory Council. Howard has also chaired Telegraph Hill Dwellers’ transportation committee for many years. From 1995-2001, Howard helped lead the Pioneer Park Project, which succeeded in persuading the city to develop pedestrian-friendly features in the area surrounding Coit Tower, including multiple stairways, an ADA accessible ramp and a terrace on the tower’s south side. Howard also serves on the boards of ABCT (A Better Chinatown Tomorrow), District 3 Democratic Club, NEXT Village and SF Tomorrow, and he is active as a lead adjudicator for North Beach Neighborhood Courts. Howard still lives in a Varennes Street building his father purchased, and his mother (age 96 at the time of this interview) lives in an upstairs unit. Howard has two sisters who live in the Bay Area, and he enjoys travel, photography and visiting museums.

In this interview, Howard speaks of his first home on Montgomery Street near Broadway; his grandfather’s, and later his parents’, immigration to California from southern China in the early 20th century; his father’s drycleaning businesses in Chinatown, and later in the Richmond District; his family’s move to Varennes Street in the early 1950s, where they were among the first Chinese families that moved to North Beach; friction between ethnic groups in 1950s North Beach, and the bigotry experienced by Chinese people when they enetred the predominately ITalian North Beach neighborhood; the vital role San Francisco’s Chinatown played in the 19th and 20th centuries as a Chinese cultural oasis; attending Garfield Elementary School, Francisco Middle School and Galileo High School, where he developed an interest in math; attending San Francisco State in the late 1960s, where he majored in math and participated in student strikes; how his interest in architecture was born while attending UC Berkeley, where he switched majors and completed a master’s program in architecture in 1975; the belief he developed while at Berkeley that architecture should benefit people social consciousness; working at HOK, ELS and other private architectural firms in the Bay Area, where his projects included hotels, libraries, shopping centers and theaters; starting work with the city’s Bureau of Architecture in the mid-1980s, where he worked for 17 years as a principal and senior architect and developed strong interests in public transportation and historic preservation; the broad range of projects he worked on for the city; riding out the 1989 earthquake in the Bureau of Architecture’s office at 45 Hyde Street; accepting early retirement from the city at age 57; his involvement with multiple transportation advocacy groups, including SaveMuni; chairing Telegraph Hill Dwellers’ transportation committee; the Pioneer Park Project in the 1995-2001 period, which succeeded in persuading the city to build pedestrian-friendly features in the area surrounding Coit Tower, fulfilling architect Arthur Brown’s original 1932 design; the unsuccessful effort to preserve the original North Beach Branch library, a mid-century modernist structure that was demolished when the current library was built in 2014; his involvement with NEXT Village, a nonprofit that provides residents of northeastern neighborhoods with support they need to remain living safely in their homes as they age; and his father’s U.S. Army service at the end of World War Two.

Howard Wong has had opportunities to review the transcript and has made corrections and emendations. The reader should keep in mind that he or she is reading a transcript of spoken, rather than written, prose.

Interview

JOHN: This is John Doxey of the Telegraph Hill Dwellers Oral History Project. Sitting with Howard Wong. It's November 11th, 2024, and we're at Howard's home at 126 Varennes Street.

HOWARD: Correct.

JOHN: … This is the home that you grew up in, right?

HOWARD: Most of my life.

JOHN: Most of your life…

HOWARD: I grew up in North Beach. I was born in Chinese Hospital on Jackson Street in Chinatown, and lived on Montgomery Street until the age of about four or five. Moved on to this street in a building across the street. And then in about 1952, my parents bought this house.

JOHN: What year were you born?

HOWARD: 1948.

JOHN: And what was the … do you recall the street that you initially grew up on?

HOWARD: It was Montgomery, near Broadway. There's still a building there. There is a multi-unit building right there near a lot of the nightclubs. Although I was too young to know anything about nightclubs. [chuckles]

JOHN: And so your parents came to Varennes Street, but not to this … one across the street?

HOWARD: Yes. Right across the street. Which is one of the oldest buildings in the city … in the district, actually. If you look behind all these facades, there's actually a very old building behind it.

JOHN: And from whom did your parents buy the place?

HOWARD: Well, this house … has only two owners. So if you look in the … way back into the Sanborn maps, you'll see the name assigned to this house was Rossi. So it was an Italian gentleman. So I don't know if he built the house, but he was the first owner. And it was built around 1914, like many buildings in this area. Progressively built after 1906 earthquake. And so my father, living across the street … probably had a … friendship with the owner, and he was able to buy this building. So we were one of the first, if not the first, Chinese-American families to own property in this area. [Transcriber’s note: Per Wikipedia, Sanborn maps are detailed maps of U.S. cities and towns in the 19th and 20th centuries. Originally published by the Sanborn Map Company, the maps were created to allow fire insurance companies to assess their total liability in urbanized areas of the United States.]

JOHN: From where did your parents come?

HOWARD: My parents, like many immigrants of the post-World War Two baby boom, came from southern China, from a city named Toisan. Toisan was a very common place for immigration in the 1920s and ‘30s because of famine and extreme poverty. So many Chinese in San Francisco in the 1930s, ‘40s, ‘50s and ‘60s came from Guangzhou, southern China. [Transcriber’s note: Taishan, romanized in Cantonese as Toishan or Toisan, is a city in the southwest of Guangdong province, China. Per Wikipedia, Taishan calls itself the "First Home of the Overseas Chinese,” and an estimated half a million Chinese-Americans are of Taishanese descent. Guangzhou, previously romanized as Canton or Kwangchow, is the capital and largest city of Guangdong province in southern China.]

JOHN: They were Cantonese speakers?

HOWARD: Yes, mostly all Cantonese speakers in San Francisco. And in particular Toisan was a very big source of immigration. And my grandfather came into this country in 1914. And he was one of the first to come … to the United States. So in his vicinity of China, he is actually … he’s kind of a little bit of a mini-celebrity because he took that big chance, moved here alone like many Chinese men at the time.

JOHN: Did anybody … did he have a wife who followed him here or…?

HOWARD: No. A lot of the immigrants there were … their families didn't follow them. Their objective was to come here, make money, get some income, send the money back to impoverished people in China, and then someday they would return. But in many cases, many of those people who came here never did return. For many reasons. Probably because they needed that flow of income, but also because it was probably too expensive to return, since their objective was really to provide funding for their larger extended family back in China.

JOHN: And is the reason that your parents came to San Francisco because they already had a family member here, the grandfather?

HOWARD: My grandfather was a kind of a pioneer immigrant because he had no one here. And so he came here kind of, like many Chinese … like many immigrants to the United States, with very little money. And it was with that hope of a better life, some income, to return to their homeland. But they didn't really know what was in store for them. So in a way, you know, it must have been pretty frightening. So but it was necessity that drove a lot of Chinese out of … to, you know, seek better fortune.

JOHN: What age were your parents when they arrived here?

HOWARD: Well, my father came here … after my grandfather came in 1914. He settled, I think, in Stockton, California. And my father came, I'm not sure what year, probably in the 1930s. And he went to Stockton for a little while. Then he … my grandfather moved to Sacramento to work in the fruit fields. He was a fruit picker most of his life. And my father followed there, didn't like it, I don't believe. Somehow came to San Francisco, started working in different types of businesses like drycleaning for most of his life. And worked in Chinatown in the drycleaner. And then later on in his life he and two friends bought a business, a drycleaning business, in the Richmond district in San Francisco. So it's kind of a very typical story about immigrants.

JOHN: What was his initial location, the laundromat business?

HOWARD: Well, in Chinatown there was a drycleaner and cleaner on Jackson Street. I believe it was called See Sun Cleaners. So it was a pretty successful business in Chinatown, owned by someone named Bob Chan, and he had quite a good-sized staff in those days. Cleaners had pretty large staffs. You know, everything was done by hand. A lot of it was, you know, labor intensive. My father was one of his roles was driving drycleaning and cleaning routes. He would take … you know, there would be clients across the city who would send their drycleaning to the Chinatown drycleaner, and he would go deliver and pick up from all over the city. So later when he started his own business on Balboa Street in San Francisco, he … that part of the job, a lot of that was done by him also … the client contacts and the, you know, … subcontracting to a lot of different outlets who wanted a centralized drycleaning service. [Transcriber's note: Correct spelling of See Sun Cleaners is unknown.]

JOHN: When he came to San Francisco, I think this was San Francisco was pretty unique in having a Chinatown district, right?

HOWARD: Yeah.

JOHN: There was no Chinatown in Oakland at that time…

HOWARD: No.

JOHN: … or Chinatown in the Richmond. It was really just here, wasn’t it?

HOWARD: Yeah. Chinatown in San Francisco, that area bordered by Broadway and Pine, Kearny and Stockton, that vicinity was the only Chinese-American Chinatown in the United States. So at that time, in the 1800s, Chinese were essentially, if not by law, by economics and politics, were confined to this area called Chinatown. And there are maps of Chinatown going back to the 1880s that actually map out every establishment type. So you could see on this map, you know, whether it's a grocer or importer or opium den or a cleaner or cigar-making factory or, you know, any type of service. Chinatown was a self-contained village and town that offered entertainment, theaters, opera, Chinese opera, food, dry goods, herbs. You know, anything was found within that community, and people never really ventured out of Chinatown. So moving our family, as the first few families that moved into North Beach were really looked at as kind of, you know, truly foreigners.

JOHN: Pioneers like his … like your grandfather.

HOWARD: Yeah, in a lot of ways. And so, you know, growing up here, you know, the Italian kids certainly didn't welcome you. And it was kind of, you know, you feared to walk out or fear of getting, you know, taunted or attacked even. So it was kind of a lot of friction between different ethnic groups in North Beach in the 1950s.

JOHN: Did you and/or your family make some connections, though, with the Italian community?

HOWARD: Yeah. I think as you grow up, you know, definitely people got to know each other. And there were a lot of other types … there was a mixture of ethnic groups in this street. There were French people next door, which was interesting because Varennes the street name is a city in France … named after a city in France where Louis the XIV and … Marie Antoinette were captured by the revolutionaries. Before the name Varennes for the street, the early maps of San Francisco show that the name was Lafayette Street. So this street has a French historical connection. And many other alleys in the area, of course, are named after like Genoa or … you know, so there's a lot of ethnic names in our streets here. So this street was a pretty interesting mixture of peoples. There were obviously the Italian grocery at the corner, we became pretty well-acquainted and good friends with. And there were, you know, the kid across the street, an Italian kid I became a good friend with, Ralph. So as time went by, you certainly developed relationships. But the … ethnic frictions continued well into the ‘50s and ‘60s. At one time, there were actually gangs [chuckles] of ethnic groups. So there were Chinese gangs, Italian gangs. I remember one time at Francisco Middle school there was a rumor spreading around the school there would be a big fight between the Italian and Chinese gangs in the afternoon. So suddenly everyone was gathering.

JOHN: Where was it going to be?

HOWARD: At North Beach playground. [chuckles] So they were like, you know, it must have been 100 people there. I remember everyone's waiting for this big fight. But the police came, so the fight never occurred. [chuckles] But there were … it was interesting. It was kind of a West Side Story, you know, in the ‘60s you actually did see gangs with their own jackets and colors. And it was kind of an interesting … when you think back today, it was kind of like people were trying to stake out their turf in a way by uniting and defending themselves or fighting others.

JOHN: Was Broadway a dividing line?

HOWARD: Broadway was a dividing line … so living in North Beach, if I walked on the street from North Beach towards Broadway it wasn’t unusual to sometimes get a stare or a taunt. You know, like “Chinaman” or something like that. Even on the bus, riding the 30 Stockton as a child, you would sometimes get some racial taunts.

JOHN: Now, I imagine that since you grew up in North Beach and it's so close to Chinatown that you would go into Chinatown to do shopping and things...?

HOWARD: Yeah, I think all Chinese, not only in this area, but Chinatown in the 19 … you know, who knows for how long … certainly in the 1910s, ‘20s, ‘30s, ‘40s, ’50s, ‘60s, Chinatown was a necessary cultural hub for Chinese America. And the food, the products were only found in Chinatown. So it wasn't unusual to go to Chinatown, say, on a Saturday morning. And Chinatown’s main shopping street, Grant Avenue, at that time, between, say, Broadway and Washington, that stretch of Grant was kind of a center of Chinese-American goods and products. So you would see people from Hawaii, and you could tell they were kind of Hawaiian, carrying like bags and bags of products.

JOHN: Things that they couldn't find in Hawaii.

HOWARD: That's right. And they were bringing it back. And that was probably true of many Chinese all over the country. If they came to San Francisco, they would load up on very difficult to find dry goods, or other products, and bring them back to whatever. Over time, of course, Chinatown not only spread and proliferated in San Francisco, now we have many Chinatowns in the Richmond District, the Sunset, the Excelsior, every, you know, all over the city. And then Chinatowns in San Jose, Oakland, Seattle, you know, you name it. There are more Chinese restaurants in the United States than all the fast food chains combined. It's kind of a little mini cultural influence. Culinary arts of China.

JOHN: Did you … so growing up you had a friend from the neighborhood named Ralph that you mentioned…

HOWARD: Yeah.

JOHN: And you went to local schools, right?

HOWARD: Yeah.

JOHN: What schools did you go to?

HOWARD: So I went to all the local schools. So Garfield school up the street, which is right at the end of Varennes. Garfield when it was first built was one big giant building. It looked like a giant mansion perched at the base of Telegraph Hill. So that was where I went to grammar school. And it was kind of a nice mixture of different ethnic groups: Chinese, Italian, others. Went to Francisco Middle School when it was first remodeled and they expanded it. So I was in the new wing at that time on Francisco … on Chestnut near Francisco. And it was a brand new school. So that was kind of a very nice feeling to be in a new building. And at the time I was very impressed being in this shiny new school. And there was a new library in the area, too. In the ‘50s, the North Beach Library when it was new. And that was very impressive. So I think being in those two very new buildings – and they were very modern at the time. Very, very modern – probably influenced me to become an architect, I think, over time [chuckles] because I remember them so vividly being in those buildings. Then I later went to high school at Galileo High School, which is our big high school in the northeast part of San Francisco. And that was kind of an interesting mix of peoples. And it was probably mostly Chinese kids. And it was not unusual to be in a math or science class that was 100% Chinese. And even the teacher sometimes was Chinese. [Transcriber’s notes: Located at 420 Filbert Street, Garfield Elementary School is one of the oldest public schools in San Francisco.; Established in 1924, Francisco Middle School is located at 2190 Powell Street.; Built in 1921, Galileo High School (now called Galileo Academy of Science and Technology) is located at 1150 Francisco Street.]

JOHN: Were the Italian kids going there, too?

HOWARD: They were. But somehow the Asian kids always seemed to get channeled into science and math. [chuckles] So it's not unusual to have a math class with all Chinese kids. So I never felt that I was a minority growing up. So that was the good thing about going to Galileo at that time, because you never felt that you were, you know, you were different. You were kind of actually the dominant cultural group. So after Galileo, I went to San Francisco State University for … I got a degree in math.

JOHN: Was it at Galileo that you began to develop an interest in math then?

HOWARD: Yeah, I think so. I think in Francisco Middle School and Galileo High School, math and sciences seemed to be much easier for me. And I think for a lot of Asian kids, for whatever reason. Maybe because language and arts and other things were kind of more difficult, right? Being of foreign … I was first generation born, but still obviously parents did not speak the language. So your … inclination seemed to be math. So, you know, being good at math, that kind of led me to major in math at San Francisco State.

JOHN: Did you have an idea of what you might do with a math degree?

HOWARD: No, I didn't. That was the … you know, in junior high school, in high school, for whatever reasons, teachers always asked kids what do they want to be when they grow up. I think that's kind of undue pressure [chuckles] because kids growing up in an immigrant family kind of look blankly. “What do you mean what am I going to do? I don't know.” So most kids seemed to … would say, “I want to be a teacher.” Because that was the only thing they saw before their eyes that seemed to be, you know, a career. You know, I had no clue what an architect was, or an engineer or any other profession. So I always used to say “teacher” … so any time someone would say something like, “I want to be a physicist” … geez, what are those, you know, how do you get there? So it was kind of a … so when going to San Francisco State math, I [was] obviously very good at it. So I had no problems, did well. So then I applied...

JOHN: What were your years at San Francisco State?

HOWARD:  …1966 to 1970.

JOHN: That was quite an interesting time there at …

HOWARD: Yeah … the thing that I associated with Galileo at the time was the construction of Fontana Towers was occurring. So growing up attending Galileo, when you sat in the football bleachers for assemblies, you would look at all these towers going up. And one time the contractors were waving. [chuckles] And of course, you know, now we look at that tower as kind of a, you know, horrible thing blocking the view. But at the time we said, “Wow! nice new building.” You didn't really think about what it was obscuring.

JOHN: [laughter] Fortunately, they stopped at two.

HOWARD: Yeah. There was there was a big high rise and freeway battle going on. But as a kid or young person you didn't really know too much about that, or I didn't know too much about it at the time.

JOHN: But am I right in understanding that your years at S.F. State were ‘66 to ‘70?

Howard: Yes, about ’66 to ’70.

JOHN: And wasn’t there a lot of civil rights movement activities going on...?

HOWARD: Yes. That was the overlap. That was the big ethnic studies and emergence of ethnic power, you know, political power. It was the baby boom generation all across the country kind of flexing their majority power. It was a huge group, and there was a sense that education wasn't geared for their needs. And there was a fight to create more ethnic studies, and there were marches. And we all remember the anti-war sentiment at the time. So there was … San Francisco State had this huge student strike. So in the early days of the strike, I was being very studious. I kind of said, “Gee, you don't want to, you know, not be part of class.” So I never really got involved. But then later as I started hearing more of the issues, I started to join the marchers, the strikers. But the ... one of the big things I remember at San Francisco State is the Kent State shootings in that university where students were shot by National Guard protesting the war. So I remember that day, you know, it was a pretty somber day on campus. So the, you know, student strikes at the time when you're involved … and you remember S.I. Hayakawa, the president of the school at the time, this bitter friction. At the time, you didn't realize how historically seminal it was because it led to some very important things, which is identity, ethnic identities of Asians, the establishment of Asian studies, Afro-American studies, Hispanic studies… [Transcriber’s notes: The Kent State shooting, also known as the Kent State massacre, occurred on May 4, 1970, at Kent State University in Ohio. During a protest against the Vietnam War and the U.S. military's expansion into Cambodia, the Ohio National Guard fired on unarmed student protesters, killing four and wounding nine.; S.I. Hayakawa (1906-1992) taught English at San Francisco State College from 1955 to 1968. From November 1968 to March 1969, there was a student strike at San Francisco State College in order to establish an ethnic studies program. Per Wikipedia, after becoming acting president of San Francisco State College in November 1968, Hayakawa became a conservative icon after he pulled out the wires from the loudspeakers on student protesters' van at an outdoor rally. He was elected to the U.S. Senate from California in 1976, where he served one term.]

JOHN: It was really a leading-edge school for that, I believe.

HOWARD: I think it was. I think San Francisco State, UC Berkeley, the Bay Area was a very important part of ethnic identity in education and the, you know, more opportunities, I guess, for understanding one's own culture and not have it kind of disappeared from academia. So today I think we have a much better balance of the recognition of different peoples in our society who have contributed to the society.

JOHN: Would you say that that experience had a lasting impact on you and kind of shaped a lot of the things you've done subsequently?

HOWARD: I think, you know … I think a lot like a lot of maybe perhaps Baby Boomers or even today, Chinese American families and perhaps all ethnic families, have this kind of a conservative outlook. You know, they're basically looking at economics … you know, growing up, getting successful job, success. I think the political shaping of San Francisco State, U.C. Berkeley where I later went to school, probably because of the general atmosphere of the schools social consciousness was kind of part of the upbringing of academia for me at that time, and for a lot of other people. So there's this undercurrent. And architecture school at Berkeley, for instance, had a very strong social activism, social contribution component to its curriculum. And you didn't realize it at the time, but the school's actual curriculum actually stressed how architecture should benefit people. So there were classes about low-income housing, social components of architecture, and even had sociology as part of the architectural curriculum, which at the time you didn't realize was fairly novel. But it was, you know. So it was integral to what you did.

JOHN: Just wanted to get the time frame. So did you … you completed … a bachelor's degree in mathematics at S.F. State?

HOWARD: Yes.

JOHN: And did you go directly onto a master's program at Berkeley?

HOWARD: Well, interestingly enough, as I was growing up, you know, architecture was a completely alien… so when I was going through junior high school I remember very vividly, and this is kind of perhaps an indicator of my inclination, and this was in the one of these general assembly career days. And so there were different speakers. And one gentleman stood up and he was talking about himself as an architect. And I said, “what's that?” You know. [chuckles] So he was presenting about buildings, and I'd say, “that's very interesting.” So I noticed that over in middle school I always seem to like to draw pictures of buildings. So that stuck in my mind. Then later there were other career days. I think in high school I crossed paths again with a career day presentation of an architect. And then at San Francisco State, while I was studying math I took this course where at the general auditorium every week, whenever the class was in session, there was a presentation by different types of artists. You know, different kinds of creative people. And again there was an architect who presented, and that kind of again resonated with me. So then when I … being good at math, I got into Berkeley in the graduate program for math. So in the first quarter, I was at Berkeley in a math class. I was sitting there very despondent because I didn't know exactly why I was studying math. Because I didn't have a sense of where I was going with it other than perhaps teaching math. So on a whim the next quarter I took some architecture classes. I can't remember if it was for credit. I think it was for credit, and I might have sat in on some without credit. And I was kind of surprised. First of all, it was very enjoyable, and you didn't have to do much work. You know, math is not something that you sit in class and then you go home. You have to do a lot of homework, a lot of problem solving, a lot of reading, a lot of study outside of class. Architecture wasn't like that. It was ... if you took architectural history or planning, it was very easy and it came very simple. And it was very enjoyable. So then the following quarter I just took all architecture classes. And my counselor in the math department said, “I notice you're not taking any math.” I said, “Well, I think I'm going to try to switch majors.” [chuckles]

So … another interesting connection was that in San Francisco State I was in a math class, and a good friend of mine, Art, was sitting there next to me. And he was talking about he was thinking of going to architecture school at Berkeley, and there was a program in Berkeley for master's where you could get a master's degree in architecture without a degree ... a bachelor's degree in architecture by this accelerated program. So I kind … that stuck in my mind in 1969 or somewhere around there. So when I was in Berkeley in 1971, I knew about that program. And so I applied. And in hindsight, I thought, “OK, well … I should have a chance, right?” I’m already in graduate school, I'm taking some architecture courses. So I was admitted to this masters in architecture option two program, which is a three-year program, accelerated program to get a graduate degree in architecture. When I first attended a class, I was surprised at the caliber of people in that class. I said, “gee, I wonder how I got in.” There were people or planners who were, you know, in artistic, creative fields.

JOHN: They already had professional experience.

HOWARD: Yeah. And they were telling me, “Oh, I submitted this huge portfolio of work.” And I had no portfolio work … I think I wrote a hand-written essay about my love of buildings and my, you know, transcripts of my math degrees … being in math graduate school. So for whatever reason, I think [chuckles] … later I said, “Wow, I really underestimated how difficult, how competitive.” You know, there were even people who weren't admitted to the program who came from all over the country and Canada and audited and tried to get in, and some did. That was how competitive it was. So that was very fortunate, and I think I did pretty well. You know, I was a pretty good … considered a very good student.

JOHN: So what year was it that you completed your Berkeley education?

HOWARD: So I graduated from the Berkeley Graduate School in Architecture in 1975.

JOHN: Did you go on to work at HOK then?

HOWARD: Yeah. So for about three or four years I was at HOK. [Transcriber’s note: HOK Group is a well-known architecture, engineering and urban planning firm based in St. Louis, MO.. Founded in 1955, the firm is named for its three founding partners: George F. Hellmuth, Gyo Obata and George Kassabaum. HOK sponsored a team of UC Berkeley architecture students, including Howard, who entered an international housing design competition in 1975.]

JOHN: In San Francisco?

HOWARD: You know, I mostly … they had started an Oakland office. So I was in Oakland, working on their new courthouse and detention center. So that was kind of … a lot of things in my career, as you can see, were good happenstance, good strokes of fortune. Some meeting people at the right time, or hearing about things at the right time. And otherwise I could very well be teaching math today [chuckles] or something else. But it was fortunate because … I think one thing about being an architect is somehow people, for whatever reason, it's more than just the eyeglasses. They say “are you an architect?” Somehow there's something about the way you approach things. So I think I found the perfect fit.

JOHN: That's great. So how many years … I believe you had a period where you worked in private firms…

HOWARD: Yes.

JOHN: …and then you ultimately went and worked for the city of San Francisco. 

Correct?

HOWARD: That's correct. So the … half my career I worked in different firms, HOK being one. I worked at ELS Design Group in Berkeley, which is one of my former professor’s firms for about four years. And actually I learned a lot about … when you're in architecture school, you're just scratching the surface of knowledge about the field. You know, the … one of the criticisms of the Berkeley curriculum is that it's too heavily focused on social theory. Which I think in hindsight, as I mentioned earlier, if you look at a lot of the socially conscious architecture in the Bay Area, a lot of it stems from that type of, you know, socially imbued sensitivities, I guess you would call it in the studies. It's not just the nuts and bolts, which you might find in a more technical school. The criticism of not having the technical skills at Berkeley is well-founded because … I think a lot of people who graduate are not equipped, really, to do the technical things of the field. So they don't necessarily get into the mainstream of architecture. But they become, of course, they find other avenues for their education. However, the ones that do enter the field of architecture from Berkeley, I think provide a lot of really good human interest … addressing the human needs of architecture. [Transcriber’s note: ELS Architecture & Urban Design is a Berkeley-based firm.]

JOHN: I imagine that you because you had come into architecture with the math skills already, that maybe you had more of the technical prowess.

HOWARD: Yes. Yeah, I think that's definitely true. Because in the engineering classes, for instance, a lot of the students, a lot of my classmates did look to me as somewhat of an expert. [chuckles] So I even tutored people, classmates. We had little study groups, and I was the tutor on engineering, which was obviously much more easy for me, you know, with equations, structural equations, calculations. So that was very … it was an important skill. So then I went on, and worked in several firms. And I really think working in a small firm of five people really gave me a lot more abilities on the technical side of architecture, because you had to do more things.

JOHN: Were you, sorry to interrupt, during this period, doing most of your projects when you were in the private sector in the San Francisco Bay Area, or were you doing things all over?

HOWARD: Yeah, I was always in the Bay Area. So I worked in San Francisco, Berkeley, Oakland. And I worked for a developer in San Francisco on a Chinese hotel. I worked in the Ferry Building for an architect on movie theaters and Cost Plus retail stores. And then, again, there was this happenstance again in life. Once I worked with a colleague who later I learned was working at the City and County of San Francisco at the Bureau of Architecture. “Oh, what's that about?” you know. So he was telling me about government had, you know, architects. I never knew that. Years later, I … bumped into somebody at a Chinese restaurant I worked with, and he said, “Oh, I'm working at the Bureau of Architecture.” “So how do you like it?” He was telling me about pension plans and things. I said, “Wow, you can get a pension?”

JOHN: That's steady income, predictable income.

HOWARD: Very steady. So I applied. Then two years later, I got a note that “We're interviewing.” So I interviewed, got an offer and went to the City of San Francisco thinking, “Oh, OK, this should be much more relaxing.” Because in private practice it's … somewhat … it could be intense. There are a lot of deadlines that you have to work, you know, many overtime hours. So I said, “Well, OK, I won't have to do all this overtime. It'll be much more 9 to 5.” Well, it didn't turn out that way. [chuckles] Public architecture actually is much more stressful. And one of the reasons is that you're not working on one or two projects or three projects. You're working on many, many projects all at the same time.

JOHN: What are some of the departments, city departments, that you … for whom you designed projects? I think you said that you had done stuff for municipal transportation and at the airport and Parks and Rec.

HOWARD: Yeah.

JOHN: What are some of the projects that you worked on?

HOWARD: Well, there are … you know, as I mentioned, the city has something like 500 to 700 buildings, probably the biggest landlord, building owners in the city. And the projects I started with included … my first big project was the Animal Care and Control, the animal shelter, renovations. Which was kind of a new state-of-the-art animal shelter. Then I went on…

JOHN: Where is that located?

HOWARD: That's located on Treat Avenue near Harrison. Harrison and Treat. At the time, it was considered, you know, a state-of-the-art facility. So it's kind of interesting to learn all about, you know, 100 percent hygienic conditions. So it was … and it was one of these accelerated projects that had to be done within six months. It was an incredible schedule. So…[chuckles]

JOHN: And what year was it, or period of time?

HOWARD: This was like 1984 or something like that. So that first introduction to the public realm was not a 9 to 5 job. [chuckles] And while I was doing that, I was working on several other small projects as well. So then over time, you know, over the 17 years I was with the Bureau of Architecture there was a range of projects. Some of the more … my best clients, I thought, were the airport. And I did … one of their major parking structures. I worked on rental car facilities, their ADA disability master plan. I also worked for other transportation components of the city, the Municipal Railway, MUNI. Worked on some of their maintenance facilities, one of their new facilities. I worked with the Parking and Traffic department, which was separate at the time from MUNI. I worked on some of their parking structures and renovations of parking structures. And so that kind of led me into interest in transportation, which I still really enjoy being involved with public transit advocacy and things like that. And I worked on Recreation and Park. I did a series of renovations for Candlestick Park at the time, the previous stadium, and brought the stadium up to 70,000 seats to host a future Super Bowl, which it did ultimately afterwards. And other important things that I liked were … or not important, but things I liked, were performing arts. I worked on the Opera House, the Veterans Building, parts of City Hall. And I think the major highlight of what I did in the public realm was historic resource restoration and historic renovations. So I worked at several historic buildings, which I think became kind of my other focus and interest area. The Spreckels Temple of Music, the Sharon Building in Golden Gate Park, the Conservatory of Flowers. And so I kind of created … had a real interest in historic buildings. Unfortunately, some of our public buildings by other people in our bureau were done so poorly that it was kind of horrible [chuckles] to be part of an agency that really desecrated some of our historic buildings at the time. Fortunately, I don't think that's possible anymore because of the oversight of the Historic Preservation Commission and other entities who have much more of a legal oversight of the buildings...

JOHN: As your seniority rose in the city architecture bureaucracy, I mean, you became a senior architect.

HOWARD: Yeah.

JOHN: Did that mean that you would oversee these projects?

HOWARD: Yeah … as my career advanced, I became a senior architect and then a principal architect. So it became much more management at some point. Which was actually things I didn't enjoy. [chuckles] So … and unfortunately in the public realm, you don't always have a chance to select your employees. So there were some employees that I had to oversee that were problematic, and it was not easy to get work done in the level that you would want. So I kind of tended to find myself doing a lot of work outside the office preparing the base work for others. So that became extremely tiring. So…

JOHN: Where was your office? Where was the…?

HOWARD: Well, the Bureau of Architecture in the … late ‘80s started at the 45 Hyde, which is was a three-story wooden building built for World War Two military use. Very quaint building. It was kind of a … very high ceilings, lot of light. Kind of a woodsy, almost barrack-like building, but it had a lot of charm and character. It's right behind the old Main Library, which is now the Asian Art Museum. And it was torn down in the ‘90s for the Asian Art Museum addition. And then later the Bureau of Architecture moved to 30 Van Ness, which is now … a big empty hole in the ground for a high-rise development. And that's located at Van Ness and Fell, right between Fell and Market. That was a very nice location, and a building that was not very … it was a pretty typical ‘60s building I guess.

JOHN: Were you at the 45 Hyde building during the ‘89 earthquake?

HOWARD: Yes, I was. It was a pretty interesting moment, October … what was it 17th?

JOHN: Yeah, October 17th, 1989.

HOWARD: I think it was at 5 p.m. So suddenly the building started shaking. So I'm in this little office, glass walls. And so I said, “Oh, boy.” So it kept shaking. So I stood under the door. That was a mistake. Later I realized I'm standing right under a glass transom. [chuckles] So everybody was looking at each other and saying, “Whoa, when is this going to stop?” Fortunately, the building is old, but it's wood frame, wood trusses. So you could hear the creaking, but it was pretty flexible. So nothing happened. So it was kind of an interesting day. I remember the first thing I said, “Gee, I’d better walk through the downtown and Chinatown to see how much damage.” So I walk down Market, walked down Grant towards North Beach. And I was surprised that I didn't see much damage. Just a little plaster here and there. I said, “Wow, that was pretty amazing. Nothing really terrible happened.” Then of course later we heard there were some serious collapses…

JOHN: In the Marina.

HOWARD: Yeah.

JOHN: Well, it's really nice in the public sector that you get such a broad array of projects, don't you?

HOWARD: Yeah, that was the real kind of opportunity and challenge. You know, you would find things in realms of work that you would never find in a normal office, which would focus oftentimes … architectural offices become specialists. Unless you’re in a big firm. Then you might have a range. But even then the range could be somewhat selective, could be, you know, hotels or high rises or, you know, libraries or something. Housing. In the public sector you have every conceivable part of city life is, you know, the city has some aspect of, you know, from the social services to the senior services to animal services, transit, airports, schools, libraries, police, fire. You know, I worked on the things … at San Francisco General Hospital I worked on this infant resuscitation room. You know, whoever heard of that, right? And it was kind of interesting. And so … and, of course, as I mentioned I just became really, you know, enamored with historic preservation and…

JOHN: So after I think you said 17 years with the city, you took the opportunity to retire. Is that correct?

HOWARD: Yeah. As I mentioned, the stress of so many jobs, managing some people, including some very challenging employees [chuckles] so the pressure was getting just unbelievably heavy. So I wasn't always enjoying what I was doing. Which is, you know, like any architect you’d rather be designing things rather than managing budgets. So the city had before then some early retirement opportunities. So there was a sense that there would not ever be early retirement offer again because the previous ones had failed ... so I took the offer and retired. However, unfortunately the economy plummeted and interest rates dropped to 3 or 2 percent or 1 percent. So it wasn't as easy a retirement, but it was still, you know, I don’t regret it. It’s an opportunity. And so I became much more active in neighborhood, community and public service.

JOHN: Well, that's what I was going to get to. It seems you have been very active in your post-professional career.

HOWARD: Yeah, I think that's been what I've enjoyed the most. Being part of different types of groups. And with my interest in public transit in particular, helped found a group called Save MUNI, which is a transit advocacy group. I was on the first MUNI Citizens Advisory Group when it was still not an official group. It was a group that was formed to advocate for funding for transit, which was one of the first times citizen groups started advocating for funding for MUNI. I joined the Transbay Joint Powers Authority’s Citizens Advisory Group...

JOHN: Are you … do you drive a car?

HOWARD: Yeah, I do. But I don't drive as much anymore.

JOHN: You're an avid MUNI user.

HOWARD: Yeah, I'm a more or less 99.5% MUNI rider. So I'm a … just love exploring transit anywhere I go. So if I travel to another city, one thing I always like to do is ride their transit and try to get everywhere by transit.

JOHN: And you're on Telegraph Hill Dwellers’ transportation committee?

HOWARD: Yes, I'm on the third stint as chair of the Telegraph Hill Dwellers’ transportation committee. So that's been the … also a very kind of an important educational tool or component of my neighborhood activism advocacy. Telegraph Hill Dwellers has had, as you know, some very well-known people in its history, people who you really can learn from. People who have been active and important in San Francisco in the neighborhood. So I learned a lot about … law, about neighborhood, you know, all the variations, the things that make a neighborhood work. And the Transportation Committee has always been very active with a lot of really good leaders. And we’ve over the years, several times … worked to help save the Coit 39 bus, for instance, from either elimination or service cuts. And it's, you know, it's something that it's a big part of this neighborhood, and I encourage everyone to be part of that.

JOHN: You worked on a couple of … at least a couple that I know about, maybe there's more that you'd like to share, but the Pioneer Park project...

HOWARD: Yeah, that was an interesting project. In 1995, Recreation and Park was announcing that they wanted to build some cyclone fencing along Telegraph Hill Boulevard, because there were too many people trying to climb up and down the hill and posing safety concerns. They … perhaps there were some accidents. People, especially European tourists, like to hike down that steep, rocky hill toward … from Coit Tower down or up to Telegraph Hill Boulevard. And then, of course, there was oncoming traffic. So a lot of people said “damn that sounds awful to build cyclone fencing.” So I was up there one day and standing at the top of the Filbert steps looking at this steep incline and watching people sure enough climbing down, sometimes carrying children. And I said … gee, this is … I could see the danger. And so I was thinking and looking at this “why isn't there a stairway coming up that hill? That seems obvious?” So I did a drawing in November of 1995 showing a stairway up from Telegraph Hill Boulevard at Filbert, and another stairway extending the stairway at Greenwich up to Coit Tower, and then building a south terrace at the south end side of Coit Tower with some additional smaller stairs. So I did these couple of pages. At the December ‘95 Telegraph Hill Dwellers Christmas party at the … Julius Castle … late in the evening, I cornered Mia Feral the president of THD and another person I can't remember who was, and we sat down, so I wanted to show you this drawing. You know, Instead of a cyclone fence, we could build, have Rec Park build some stairways. She said, “this is a great idea.” So she could be in a meeting and invited a lot of Telegraph hill dwellers. And one of them was that a house facing that that hill. And so this group, everybody looked at it makes sense. You know, why wouldn't this. So we proposed that to Rec Park. Rec Park did not have the money. And then … so five Telegraph Hill Dwellers formed this group, started forming these formal meetings, to see what we could do to advocate for and raise money. And that spun off into a group that for five years, called the Pioneer Park Project, met regularly from 1995 to 2001. Raised money, advocated with politicians, created public-private partnerships. So we had, you know, all kinds of fundraisers, events, art auctions, functions. We spoke at public bodies like the Metropolitan Transportation Commission to get money, spoke … with the Transportation Authority to get money. And were able to … partnered, very importantly, with the Bureau of Landscape Architecture at the Public Works Department. Got one of their landscape architects who is a friend of mine to kind of start coming to our meetings, on his own time at first. And then as we started building this funding, and reached over $1 million, we were able to get … with the Public Works Department, their department … to complete the drawings that we had started. So the project design initiated here in the community … and we did the design … initial design with a lot of volunteer architects, landscape architects ... and stayed together for five years to complete this great public-private partnership, which today, if you look at the stairways and that south terrace wouldn't be there, but more importantly, also created the ADA disability access through the south terraces that was the city was legally bound to do anyway. So our project fulfilled a legal obligation. Interesting enough during the … about 1998, somewhere thereabouts, and after we had … the community had designed this project with multiple stairways, south terrace, ADA accessible ramp from the north parking lot around the new terrace into Coit Tower. At that time before the final … formal working drawings were to start I knew we needed to get the original drawings of Coit Tower. So the Bureau of Architecture has a vault that's kind of a, you know, old safe. Looks like an old safe. So I went there, found the original drawings of Coit Tower from 1932. And I started to look at them, and it was kind of interesting. I said, “Wait a minute. What is this?” There were some...

JOHN: They had stairs?

HOWARD: There were some drawings. And the drawings show the south stairway that we intended. It looked a little different, but was pretty close. It showed a stairway extending from the Greenwich steps that looked pretty close to what we were doing and had a south terrace. Instead of our oval terrace it had a rectangular terrace. These are drawings by Arthur Brown, the original architect. So I looked at it and said, “Wow, what in the world?” And it said that here are alternates. Alternates in bidding are things that if you have enough money, you would build. So the original drawings actually included all the stairways that we had envisioned and a south terrace. So we were … our campaign then became “following in the footsteps of history.”

JOHN: Kind of completing the original design.

HOWARD: Yeah. So this is amazing. So we all looked at these … and then we started creating drawings showing this was what was built, this was what Arthur Brown had intended, this is what we're doing. So there was this lineage of history. So” great minds think alike,” we said. [Transcriber’s Note: Built between 1932 and 1933, Coit Tower was designed by architects Arthur Brown Jr. and Henry Temple Howard.]

JOHN: That's a great story, a great project ... And maybe a less happy story, and interesting that you talked about the North Beach Library as a child … and I think you were quite involved when that renovation was…

HOWARD: Yes, I was. Well, the history of that area it actually precedes the library project itself. I forgot exactly what year, but it was a big land use battle in our neighborhood. The corner of Columbus and Lombard, where the new North Beach Library stands today was an empty lot that was formerly a gas station. And … a developer had planned to build a housing multi … I think it was like three or four stories housing unit and he was entitled or the project had all the approvals he was about to start. Somehow there was a … I can't recall the origins, but there was a battle to save that corner for open space. And so many people, including myself, got interested in that. And we thought, “that is true, you know, that corner would be perfect for open space.” Because it's right, you know, you can think of Columbus on Washington Square, you would have that park, you would have, you know, the park down at the Cannery. So that seemed like a nice collection of parks. And the view corridor from that intersection of Columbus and Lombard was just fantastic. You know, if you open that up you see Coit Tower, Peter and Paul, Lombard Street, all of that. So there was this big battle led at the time by Supervisor Peskin and the neighborhood, Telegraph Hill Dwellers. And there was a vote to seize that property by eminent domain … for open space. And that won, but I think barely won at the board. So everybody is very happy. And suddenly when the new when the library bond wanted to, you know, renovate the library. The existing library was a mid-century modernist building that, you know, I found, as I mentioned, extremely well done. Beautiful building … interesting, open floor plan … just a beautiful building when it first opened. So I had great, you know, fondness for it. So I said, “Well, that's great. Renovation, expansion that would be nice.” Then suddenly, somewhere in that process, there was a committee meeting for the library and there was this giant multi-thousand dollar model. And instead of a renovation … it was a new library built on the corner where the park was. So my first reaction, “Wait a minute. That property was seized by eminent domain for open space. How can you … build a building on it when the previous entitled housing project was denied and seized for open space?” And the argument, “Well, this is the perfect location for the library because it opens up the playground more.” I said, “Well, that's not the point. The point is … aren’t there some legal, you know, underpinnings here about building a park?” Anyway, that led to several of us in the neighborhood organizing to fight that. And actually filed a lawsuit. Because it wasn't that we were against a library, new library. We wanted a renovation and an open space. So we did all these drawings and arguments, and I did a drawing showing that, well, if you renovated the old library, expanded it down into the basement, and added an addition, you would have several thousand square feet more of library space plus save a million dollars or more that you could use to, you know, build a technology center, for instance. Anyway, so we made all these arguments, filed a lawsuit on an environmental basis, and lost. We couldn't believe it because the court said, “well, it doesn't matter if you took the property for open space, you can change your mind.” That seems to defy all logic. Under that kind of argument you could do anything and, you know. So anyway, the new library was built. And people were … so the library commission and other advocates for it kept “it's going to be beautiful.” So at least one thing we did as a group is we argued that, “well, at least put more windows in.” So originally … if you look at the building, they have these slotted windows. Well, originally they were going to be very thin slots. [chuckles]. At least we argued and got them wider. So if you see wider windows that's because of our fight. But after the building opened, people started asking, “why is this library so small and no tables?” And I said, “because you can't fit things into a triangle very efficiently.” So then we started having a lot of people wonder, you know, “how did it happen?” I said, “well, it was politics.” You know, people just couldn't read drawings or look at a rendering and not understand that if you put an ant on the very corner with a perspective it looks bigger than it is. Because in reality, everybody was surprised how small. And the old library, even though it was smaller, felt much bigger. And if we added to that, we would have a much better building. And also the North Beach Library later was put on the National Register of Historic Places, which we fought for during the process to highlight its architectural significance. And so the state of California and the federal, you know, historic nominations committees agreed that this was a significant mid-Modernist building. So we lost something. [Transcriber’s note: Opponents of the plan to build a new library in North Beach by demolishing the old one filed a lawsuit in 2011 to save the mid-century modernist building designed by the firm Appleton & Wolfard in 1958. The old library at 2000 Mason Street, which was demolished, was listed on the National Register of Historic Places. For information, see https://beyondchron.org/north-beach-library-fiasco-part-iii/]

JOHN: You can't win them all.

HOWARD: No.

JOHN: Well we could go on and on. There's so many interesting things you've done. One thing I do want to maybe close with is NEXT Village.

HOWARD: Yes.

JOHN: Now have you been helping to form that group? What is your involvement?

HOWARD: Well, my attachment to NEXT Village started when Jonee Levy and Janet Crane of our neighborhood saw an interesting model in Boston called Beacon Hill Village, where seniors living … in their community started helping each other and formed a group called a village, where volunteers would be sought and they would help each other. They started a group. So … about 17 years ago, I joined that board as a founding board member. And because I said “that makes so much sense” … like many things that I've kind of become attached to, it seems so obvious that you needed certain things, and one of them was seniors, neighbors helping neighbors. Because there are people who aren't low income enough to afford, you know, to have government assistance and … they have too much income or wealth or savings to qualify for, you know, the very low end of society. And they’re not rich enough to buy, you know, assisted services. So anyway, it's something that I think, as you know, is very important and has grown in our neighborhood. And it's going to be needed throughout this country as the aging population grows. [Transcriber’s Note: NEXT Village SF is a neighborhood nonprofit providing services and support that empower members to live independently in their own homes as they age. For information, see https://nextvillagesf.org/]

JOHN: Are you on board or...?

HOWARD: Yes, I'm on the board, right. So I've been on the board since it was founded. So it's a really important group I think ... Tthere are many, many villages in the Bay Area now. We were one of the first, if not the first, and they're all over the country. So it's kind of like a neighborhood or a community or even a cluster of a building or two could form their own village. So it's an organization that advocates for their membership, or people not necessarily members. We Next Village in San Francisco, we provide a huge amount of service content in terms of educational courses. We do trips, outings, luncheons, language classes, book readings. So if you go on the NEXT Village SF website, you'll see this whole calendar of events which are actually open to everyone. And that's part of the service we give, not only to seniors but a lot of other people.

JOHN: I just want to also close with talk a little bit about your family. So we're kind of going back full circle to where we started the conversation … your parents, I think, are no longer with us, is that right?

HOWARD: Well, my mother is still alive.

JOHN: She is?

HOWARD: Yes.

JOHN: Oh, terrific.

HOWARD: She’s 96.

JOHN: Where does she live?

HOWARD: She lives upstairs, in this building here.

JOHN: That’s terrific ... I think your father was in the army, wasn't he?

HOWARD: Yes, he was. That was how many families started. My father was in the army. And after the war, many Chinese-American soldiers went back to China and brought, you know, their future wives here … Because, you know, as you know, the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 prevented Chinese emigration in this country. A very dark part of our history. And it was only because of World War Two, when China became an ally of the United States, that led to the repeal of the Chinese Exclusion Act, allowing Chinese immigration. And one of the first things was the war brides [sneezes] where a lot of Chinese-Americans could go back and bring a lot of bride back.

JOHN: Oh, so he was here and then he went back and he brought your mother back?

HOWARD: Yes.

JOHN: And where did he serve?

HOWARD: Well, let's see … I can't remember where he went to boot camp. But he was … towards the end of the war, he served in the Japanese occupational forces, I think in … Fukuoka I think it was. So it was kind of an interesting experience, he said, to look at, you know, these enclosures. And he would see Japanese prisoners of war, and they would look at him and they’d kind of say, “hmmm, who is he?” So it was kind of interesting he said. [Transcriber’s Note: During the occupation of Japan following World War Two, the U.S. Army played a significant role in Kyushu, particularly in Fukuoka.]

JOHN: And then … so he learned English pretty well. Has your mother learned English?

HOWARD: No, actually, a lot of … you’ll probably find a lot of older Chinese people in San Francisco still don't speak much English. Especially in Chinatown you actually really did have a truly insular village. So a lot of my relatives, older relatives, did not speak much English. My father, growing up somewhat in Stockton and Sacramento and San Francisco, did speak English. So he….

JOHN: And he was in the work world…

HOWARD: Yeah. Right, exactly.

JOHN: And then you have two sisters, right?

HOWARD: Yes.

JOHN: Are they living in the Bay Area?

HOWARD: Yeah. They both live in the area.

JOHN: Have you stayed in touch with any of the people that grew up in the neighborhood when you were growing up, like Ralph or any of the people you went to school with?

HOWARD: No, not really. Well, interestingly, a lot of the people say on this street alone have gone on to very … I always say that the post … Baby Boom generation is a very remarkable generation. So when you look at, you know, there were two police chiefs who grew up in alleys in San Francisco. One of them is Fred Lau. He grew up on Varennes Street on the other side of this block. Chief Heather Fong grew up on Bantham Place, another alley off of Green and Grant. And on this street, many of my neighbors who, you know, when you’re growing up you think “they’re not going to amount to much,” well, a lot of them have done very well. My next door neighbor is a very wealthy, mechanical engineer, salesman. I have a couple of neighbors who are … were in tech. I haven't kept up with them, but … I was very surprised that they became such successful tech people. And this street has had a whole host of very interesting, creative people. There have been writers, artists, filmmakers. You know, Gary Kamiya the journalist lives up the block. We have a couple of contractors here who are doing very well. And restauranteurs. So that post-World War Two Baby Boom generation, when you look back at the days of Garfield grammar school, Francisco Middle School, Galileo High School, and you think, you know, all those people didn't know where they were going. Well, a lot of people have done very well, you know, contributing to society. So it's a great, great model, I think, for the future. 

JOHN: I want to thank you so much, Howard.

HOWARD: Well, thank you.

[END]