Transcript: Matteo Ciuffreda (1917-1999)

Preface

The following oral history transcript is the result of a tape-recorded interview with Matteo Ciuffreda on July 11, 1996. The interview took place at the Matteucci Jewelers store at 450 Columbus Avenue in San Francisco, California. The interview was conducted by Judith Robinson, an author, historian and member of the Telegraph Hill Dwellers, a community organization. This interview is part of the Italian-Americans of North Beach series of interviews that were conducted in 1996 by Judith Robinson with funding from U.C. Berkeley’s Bancroft Library. The interview was transcribed and edited by John Doxey in 2022.

Format: Originally recorded on one audio cassette tape. Duration is 39 minutes.

Attribution: This interview is property of the Telegraph Hill Dwellers. Quotes, reproductions and excerpts must be cited as follows: Oral history interview with Matteo Ciuffreda, July 11, 1996. Telegraph Hill Dwellers Oral History Project.

Summary: Matteo Ciuffreda was born in San Giovanni Rotondo, a town in the Apulia region of southern Italy, in 1917. His father was a jeweler and watchmaker, and Matteo started learning how to repair watches and clocks as a young boy. He eventually had his own watchmaking and jewelry business, and he married his wife, Inez, in Italy in 1943. Inez was born and raised in San Francisco, and in 1947 the couple left Italy and moved to San Francisco. Matteo spoke no English when he arrived, and he took a job at the Matteucci Jewelers store in North Beach where the owner, Rocco Matteucci, spoke Italian. Matteo worked as a watchmaker and jeweler at the Matteucci store for the rest of his life, purchasing the business after Rocco died in 1959. Matteucci Jewelers was famous for the 25-foot-high, four-dial clock that stood outside the store, a hallmark of the business since its founding in 1886. Matteo long feared that the clock might be damaged by a passing truck. In 1999, just two days before he passed away at age 82, the clock he loved was wrecked by a truck. For more information about Matteo, see Carl Nolte’s obituary for the San Francisco Chronicle at www.sfgate.com/news/article/Historic-Clock-s-Owner-Dies-in-S-F-Jeweler-2902136.php

Matteo was 79 years old when Judith Robinson interviewed him. In this interview, Matteo focuses on his long career with Matteucci Jewelers, which began in 1947. He speaks of how he came to work for Rocco Matteucci shortly after arriving in San Francisco, at a time when he spoke no English; how the historic, 25-foot-high Seth Thomas clock that stood outside the store mysteriously stopped running for 10 days after Rocco’s death in 1959, as though the clock may have been mourning, before it just as curiously started working again; how trucks have a tendency to smash street clocks; how a fortune in diamonds safely weathered the 1906 earthquake and fire while stored in a Gold Rush-era safe and vault at the Matteucci Jewelers store; the store’s move to its 450 Columbus Avenue location in 1977; meeting Inez in San Francisco before she moved to Italy, where he married her; learning English after his move to San Francisco and the importance of being able to communicate in English for his self-esteem; how he learned the watchmaking and jewelers trade through his father and older brothers, six of whom became watchmakers in Italy; how he began tinkering with watches at the age of five and repaired his first watch at age 10; the Matteucci store’s loyal clientele; how his business is the center of his life and keeps him too busy to participate in other activities; how he has assembled a collection of antique clocks for the store.

Judith Robinson has reviewed the transcript and corrections and emendations have been made. The reader should keep in mind that he or she is reading a transcript of spoken, rather than written, prose.

Interview

JUDITH: This should be Mr. Ciuffreda at the Matteucci Jewelers Store on Columbus Avenue in North Beach, interviewed by Judith Robinson July 11th, 1996. [Transcriber’s note: there is a 43-second blank section of the tape here. When the recording resumes, Matteo is in the midst of speaking a sentence.]

MATTEO: …uh, Mr. Matteucci came from Italy in 1904. And he opened … he worked a couple years for … not a couple years, a few months for, uh, Ferrari Peters. Now all this took place a couple of blocks from here in the 200 block. [Transcriber’s note: the correct spelling and nature of the Ferrari Peters business is unknown. It appears to have been a watchmaking and jewelry store.]

JUDITH: Of Columbus Avenue?

MATTEO: On Columbus Avenue. And there were four jewelers in that block at that time. Four jewelers.

JUDITH: And when was that?

MATTEO: That’s in 1902, ‘03, something like that. I don’t remember exactly. ’02, ’03.

JUDITH: OK.

MATTEO: And he worked the Ferrari Peters, which was in the same block, just before he opened his own store. And then he decided to open his jewelry store, which was a smaller size. You know, the first one. Then a couple years later we had the famous earthquake and fire in 1906…

JUDITH: Right.

MATTEO: … and his store and the other three, they all went in flames. Across the street from him was Mr. Castagnaetto.

JUDITH: C-A-S…

MATTEO: You want me to spell?

JUDITH: That would be great.

MATTEO: C-A-S-T-A-G-N-A-E-T-T-O.

JUDITH: Oh, Castagnaetto.

MATTEO: And, uh, then after the [unintelligible word here] was finished, Mr. Matteucci and Mr. Castagnaetto decide to get together and open a [unintelligible word here]. Now Mr. Castagnaetto started his store in 1886. [Transcriber’s note: it appears that Mr. Castagnaetto and Rocco Matteucci were both in the jewelry and watchmaking business and that they formed a partnership after the 1906 earthquake and fire and that they expanded the business that Castagnaetto started in 1886 in North Beach. Matteucci and Castagnaetto worked together for about 30 years, and after Castagnaetto retired the business was re-named Matteucci Jewelers. Mr. Castagnaetto’s first name is unknown.]

JUDITH: Wow.

MATTEO: He was a little older than Mr. Matteucci. Mr. Matteucci was still a young man, and Mr. Castagnaetto was a little older. And they’ve been together … and they opened a big store, and it was pretty famous here because they had a catalog to mail and a lot of people from out of San Francisco came to shop with them. It was a big store, you know. Of course, at that time there was no shopping centers and everything, so they depended more on the city. Uh, they were together for about 30 years and…

JUDITH: Thirty years?

MATTEO: Thirty years, yeah. Then Mr. Castagnaetto he retired, so Mr. Matteucci eliminated the name Castagnaetto and kept his own name, Matteucci.

JUDITH: And Matteucci is spelled M-A-T-T…?

MATTEO: M-A-T-T-E-U-C-C-I.

JUDITH: Alright.

MATTEO: So then…

JUDITH: Was it the largest or one of the largest and oldest stores in the city?

MATTEO: No, no, no.

JUDITH: OK.

MATTEO: But I would say definitely in North Beach. But it was pretty important in the city also... [Transcriber’s note: cross-talking results in some unintelligible words here.]

JUDITH: But one of the oldest in North Beach?

MATTEO: It was definitely the oldest and the biggest in North Beach, yes … then, uh, the war came and...

JUDITH: World War One?

MATTEO: World War One and Two. One and Two … in World War One, they were still together and in World War Two, Mr. Matteucci was alone. And he had a watchmaker. He had a watchmaker, then they quit for some reason. Then I came from Italy in, uh, 1947 … which I couldn’t speak English at all. I knew only one word: no. Because it’s the same in Italian. So, uh, I didn’t look for my job. I mean, do you want to know a personal thing or two?

JUDITH: Surely, yes.

MATTEO: Well, if I mentioned it, it would be a bit more colorful.

JUDITH: Absolutely, yes indeed.

MATTEO: I didn’t even look for my job because I needed an interpreter. So I was ready to go to work with American Terrazzo. They were Italian, so we could speak Italian. And I was about to start that Monday, this particular Monday. Then somebody told me... [Transcriber’s note: American Terrazzo Company, based in San Francisco, has specialized in terrazzo flooring and masonry work since the early 1900s.]

JUDITH: Here in San Francisco?

MATTEO: …in San Francisco, yes. Then they told me Mr. Matteucci was looking for a watchmaker. And the first thing I asked: does he speak Italian? Name was Italian, does he speak it? And they said “yeah, yeah, he came from Italy, too.” So that was very convenient for me. He was very much in need of a watchmaker, and I was very much in need of a job [chuckles] and we could speak Italian between us, so we could understand each other. So anyway, I came to ask for the job to Mr. Matteucci on Friday, and he was in so much need he told me I could start on Saturday. So the first day I started was on Saturday. Lucky for me, you know. So I’ve been here ever since. Now we worked together 14 years, I was here. And I start to learn a little bit of English, you know, broken.  And after that, uh, he unfortunately passed away. He passed away in 1959.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

MATTEO: Now comes the clock. Oh, yeah, I have to mention that. After they opened this beautiful store. Big and everything. It was big, big. This was on 229, 231 and 233. It had three numbers … it was a real big store. Ah…

JUDITH: That was the address on Columbus Avenue of this store?

MATTEO: Of this store. Yes.

JUDITH: Is that the present address?

MATTEO: No, this is 450...

JUDITH: Oh, it’s two blocks down.

MATTEO: Yeah, it was two blocks down. Right in the middle of the block between Pacific and, uh, Broadway. So then they decide to improve the appearance and everything, and they bought this clock. Now this clock has four dials. In many street clocks, most, they have two dials. Much smaller. This is the biggest they make.

JUDITH: So they bought this back in the 1920s?

MATTEO: No, 1908.

JUDITH: Oh, right after the earthquake, when they started...

MATTEO: A few years after, yeah, they bought the clock. And the clock was there…

JUDITH: When you say bought it, where would it have come from? Europe?

MATTEO: No, no, this comes from Massachusetts. No, no, wait a minute, from Connecticut. Seth Thomas.

JUDITH: Oh, it’s a Seth Thomas?

MATTEO: Seth Thomas clock, yeah. Now, this clock was always in service there, working in perfect condition and everything. And this was a winding clock. Had to be wound once a week.

JUDITH: Um-hmm.

MATTEO: And when I started to work here, I decided to choose the day easy to remember. Which was on Saturday. Easy for me. So every Saturday, I wound the clock. Now when Mr. Matteucci died, it was September 21st, 1959. It was a Monday. He died around seven o’clock in the morning. And I was informed, of course, by his son, and I saw … I came to the store to pick up something. But we kept the store closed until the funeral took place and everything. And I noticed the clock was stopped. It was stopped about half an hour after Mr. Matteucci passed away. Now this is the truth. And I don’t believe in spirits, and ... coincidence, yes, but spirits, no.

So I said, oh gosh, I forgot to wind it Saturday. Because a couple of days it will keep going even if you don’t wind. And then I remembered that we both wound the clock because Mr. Matteucci was on the phone and wanted to talk to me. So he came there and then I remember Mr. Matteucci was with me when I wound the clock … so I didn’t see anything wrong. So I pushed the pendulum and a few minutes later the clock stopped again. Well, I did this a couple of times. This was on Monday, the first day back. Then, uh, I had to arrange, because we were just like one family. With this family we were very close, you know. I had to do something for the family and everything. And I came back in the afternoon, and the clock was stopped. So again I opened the door there to see the thing there, and again I didn’t see anything wrong. So I pushed the pendulum, and a few minutes later the pendulum stopped. So I was in the store for a couple of hours. I did this at least two or three times, I don’t remember now, but the pendulum kept stopping a few minutes later. So it was time to go home and I went home, and the following day I came here and again looked at the clock. There was nothing.

Then the day after the funeral, which was three or four days after, I don’t remember now, well, I said maybe it needs cleaning. Because I used to clean it on average once a year. So I cleaned the clock to make sure everything was OK. And the same thing happened. The same thing happened. And after I finished cleaning and everything, the clock stopped again. Well, I got so mad, I kicked the clock and I hurt my foot.

JUDITH: [chuckles]

MATTEO: I had to limp for a few days then. I really was mad, and I kicked like that. It was stupid of me, but I did anyway. So, anyway, this went on for 10 or 11 days. Looked, nothing wrong. Tried to find something I could take care of, nothing wrong. Ten or 11 days later, again I thought I’ve got to do this because it doesn’t look good, you know, the clock stopped outside there. So I opened the clock and looked. Meanwhile, I pushed the … pendulum and meanwhile I was looking to find something wrong. A few minutes later, not a few minutes, maybe 15, 20 minutes later, the pendulum kept going. And I didn’t do anything, I didn’t touch it, I was trying to find what was wrong. Anyway, to make short, the pendulum kept going and never stopped. And ever since then the clock was OK. [chuckles] It was perfect.

JUDITH: Amazing.

MATTEO: I mean this is honest to god the truth … now I heard also there is another clock with four dials in, uh, San Diego. Which I saw that. It belongs to the biggest jewelry store in San Diego. When the owner died, the same thing happened there. The clock stopped. That’s what has been told to me. Now this is a thing that’s weird, isn’t it?

JUDITH: Well, you know, this is ironic, because I just finished reading a book about John Harrison, the man who discovered longitude…

MATTEO: Oh, yeah, yeah.

JUDITH: …with his famous Harrison clocks in the 18th century in England.

MATTEO: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

JUDITH: And one of the clocks that he invented went, uh, with Captain Cook on one of his voyages. And when he took it to Hawai’i on the famous voyage there, where he landed in Hawai’i and then was murdered by the natives, that Harrison clocked stopped when he was murdered and they never could figure out why.

MATTEO: Isn’t that something?

JUDITH: So when I read that and then heard your story, uh, it’s amazing.

MATTEO: It is amazing. Now this … see, I am a watchmaker and I couldn’t find anything wrong. After I cleaned also, I mean, I had just looked at it, I cleaned and went over all that, definitely, because I cleaned so many times. Every year just about...

JUDITH: So it remains a mystery?

MATTEO: To me it’s the biggest mystery. And like I said, I don’t believe all these, uh, spirits. I never did believe that in my life. But coincidence, what can I say?

[unintelligible words here]

JUDITH: How tall is this clock? It’s about…

MATTEO: Twenty-five feet.

JUDITH: Twenty-five feet?

MATTEO: Twenty-five feet. I thought it was shorter…

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

MATTEO: …and, uh, when I moved … it was laying in the truck there and I said oh, because I wanted to see how tall it was. And I was surprised…

JUDITH: Yeah.

MATTEO: …because I didn’t think it was that tall. I thought it was 17, 18 feet because it doesn’t look that tall. But it’s 25 feet definitely, that’s for sure, because I measured.

JUDITH: And it’s a landmark … in North Beach, I know. You’ve kept it in…

MATTEO: In San Francisco.

JUDITH: In San Francisco?

MATTEO: Oh, absolutely.

JUDITH: Is it one of the last of these kind of…?

MATTEO: No, I wouldn’t say the last. But these kinds, especially the four dials, are the last in the United States. I mean the worst enemy is the trucks. Because the trucks run into it and smash the whole thing there. And this now [unintelligible words here] the exact clock match is in the front of the Watch and Clock Collector Museum in Pennsylvania. It’s the exact clock match. [unintelligible words here] And when I saw that, I couldn’t believe it. I mean it’s exactly the same model and everything. [Transcriber’s note: the National Watch & Clock Museum is located in Columbia, Pennsylvania.]

[Transcriber’s note: customer in Matteo’s store speaks here in Italian.]

JUDITH: And where is that museum again? In Philadelphia?

MATTEO: No, it’s not in Philadelphia.

JUDITH: Columbia, Pennsylvania?

MATTEO: 514 Poplar Street in Columbia, Pennsylvania.

JUDITH: So, this is a United States landmark. Has it been landmarked historically in any way?

MATTEO: Well, see before was … they have never been very popular because they were quite expensive. The four dials especially. But, uh, two dials were less expensive, but not too cheap either. Not every jewelry store could afford that. Uh, but the four dials were much more expensive and, uh, see, as far as I know, in California there is four of these clocks. Not exactly like this. They have four dials, but not exactly like this. And the one is in front of this [unintelligible words here] You see it’s in front. And this, I read the story of this afterwards. I don’t remember the state now. It was a jewelry store. And he died … he died and the widow, she could not run the store. She was not a jeweler. So they closed the jewelry store and they had a clock exactly like that. And she donated to the museum. [unintelligible words here] I forgot. In the south somewhere. I forgot the state.

JUDITH: Well, you, uh, came to Italy [Transcriber’s note: Judith means San Francisco here] then as a grown man, and you already were a clock maker.

MATTEO: No clock maker.

JUDITH: I mean…

MATTEO: Jeweler. I was a jeweler and watchmaker. Not a clock maker.

JUDITH: Watchmaker.

MATTEO: Well, I happen to be not just a watchmaker. I manufacture jewelry, I design jewelry, I repair jewelry, I can set the stone. I mean, I have all the jeweler…

JUDITH: You’re a gemologist.

MATTEO: I am a gemologist. So I’m not a repairman.

JUDITH: No.

MATTEO: I’m a master jeweler, because I know all these trades and not all jewelers know that.

JUDITH: Well, I notice you have a wonderful collection of antique clocks. Is that an avocation of yours, a hobby?

MATTEO: Well, see, that went back … by the way, the old store, the original store, was twice the size of this. I had two of those. This was in the middle. It was a beautiful store, really beautiful store. And I, uh, used to carry silverware. Then we couldn’t compete with the big stores. The inventory there is cheaper there … for the customer … I couldn’t give that service, so I didn’t sell that much. And I had a [word not intelligible] franchise, which, you know, the franchise you have to buy so many pieces a year, which I couldn’t because I didn’t sell. So I discontinued the silverware, and I found myself with an empty case there. I got panicked. So, uh, and I had a few clocks there, and the customers they admired them … and that gave me the idea, but I didn’t have the old ones. They weren’t like that one in the middle there [unintelligible words here] … they were new. So that gave me the idea to buy old clocks. [Unintelligible word here.] Not for sale. Just my property. So I filled the thing there, I beautified the store, and it became an investment. Because the price I paid then, now they’re worth at least 10 times more. So, uh, it worked fine.

JUDITH: So those are in tall cases, and you originally had twice the number of tall cases? Then you have the low counter cases here...

MATTEO: Well, see this. This is half a one...

JUDITH: It’s a beautiful wooden, old fashioned wooden…

MATTEO: It’s solid mahogany.

JUDITH: Mahogany.

MATTEO: And so is that. Solid mahogany. Everything, solid mahogany. So I had another case on this side and this was right in the middle and the ceiling was very high. And [unintelligible words here] right there in the front. Beautiful.

JUDITH: Lovely, yeah.

MATTEO: But I had to move because the owner wanted to put a coffee shop or something in there. But I’m glad. This position is much better than that. Much, much better.

JUDITH: Yes. Now you have a wonderful safe at the back, too. Did that come with the old store…?

MATTEO: Yes, that safe.

JUDITH: It’s a big safe.

MATTEO: Well, that’s a vault and a safe. It’s a vault in the safe. And that was in the earthquake and fire in 1906. But, uh, Mr. Castagnaetto had that safe there. But he bought it used. I think that safe would be at least 150 years old, I figure.

JUDITH: Wow.

MATTEO: Now that was in the earthquake and fire and there were a large amount of diamonds from this salesman from New York. They went to dinner together with Mr. Matteucci, and, uh, it was too late. He was staying at the Palace Hotel, and he asked Mr. Matteucci if he could leave the diamonds there. Which at the time they were about $200,000, but that was 1906. Now they would be $10,000,000, maybe more. Anyway, unfortunately, well, he asked to use the safe to put these diamonds in. He didn’t want to cross the town to the safe at the hotel.

JUDITH: Right.

MATTEO: So, unfortunately, the earthquake came, and he got stuck here. So he couldn’t leave town because he had all the [unintelligible word here] inside there. Anyway, after the fire was over, was out, uh, a day after, the safe was in the basement, full of rubbish and everything.  They could not touch the safe. It was too hot. All the rubbish kept the heat there. So they uncovered that, and they had to wait another day to open the safe, and they didn’t know what happened inside there. That guy there, if he didn’t get out of it that time, he was [unintelligible words here] for the rest of his life. But they opened it, and nothing was damaged. Nothing. And they became lifelong friends. Every summer him and his wife they came to San Francisco and spent a week. And I met him.

JUDITH: Um-hmm.

MATTEO Yeah, I met him, too. Yeah

JUDITH: His $200,000 worth of diamonds went safely on.

MATTEO: Yeah. So, uh…

JUDITH: Well, that must be a Gold Rush era safe then?

MATTEO: Uh, it’s possible.

JUDITH: Uh-hmm.

MATTEO: A Gold Rush safe. And, uh, the two things when I moved. As a matter of fact, it took two days to move that thing. From two blocks. Two days. The clock took one day, and the safe took two days to move because they had to dismantle the front and everything. The thing that I was concerned most was the safe and the clock. The rest … I also had furniture.

JUDITH: And when did you move here?

MATTEO: I moved here in 1987.

JUDITH: Oh, that recently?

MATTEO: Yes. Twenty years ago? … that’s right … nineteen years ago.

JUDITH: Um-hmm.

MATTEO: …Which I’m glad I did. A smaller store and everything, but the position is much better.

JUDITH: Eighty-seven. No, it was about 12 years ago.

MATTEO: Oh, ’77. I’m sorry, ’77. Oh yeah. Oh, gosh.

JUDITH: Yeah, I thought you were here before ’87.

MATTEO: Yeah, yeah, ’77. That’s right.

JUDITH: Now, tell me a little something about how you came to America. Where did you come from and where were you trained? … If you want to. What part of Italy did you come from?

MATTEO: Well, I’m from the south. On the east side, right across from Rome. The province is Foggia.

JUDITH: How do you spell it?

MATTEO: F-O-G-G-I-A … Foggia.

JUDITH: And what town?

MATTEO: The town is San Giovanni Rotondo… [Transcriber’s note: San Giovanni Rotondo is a town located in the Apulia (Puglia) region of southern Italy. It lies within the province of Foggia.]

JUDITH: San Giovanni…

MATTEO: Rotondo.

JUDITH: R-O-T-O-N-D-O. It’s on the…?

MATTEO: That’s a famous now, that town there.

JUDITH: Why?

MATTEO: It’s famous, uh, because a friar, he just died, I don’t know, less than 20 years ago.  And he had the [unintelligible word here] of Jesus Christ.

JUDITH: Oh, my.

MATTEO: And I know him personally. I’ve known him since I was a baby. And some day he will be a saint.

JUDITH: Ah-ha.

MATTEO: That’s why it’s famous. [Transcriber’s note: According to multiple internet sources, the friar was Padre Pio, who became famous for recurring stigmata, corresponding to Christ’s crucifixion wounds.]

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

MATTEO: People come from all over the world there.

JUDITH: I see.

MATTEO: And, as a matter of fact, I happened to be married by him.

JUDITH: Oh, really?

MATTEO: Um-hmm. He married me.

JUDITH: So were you married when you came to America in 1947?

MATTEO: Well, OK, this is a long story…

JUDITH: Well, you don’t have to.

MATTEO: No, no, no … OK, let me … I was here. Let’s make it short. I was here, and I met my wife.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

MATTEO: Then I went back to Italy, and my wife came there. My wife is of an Italian family … she was born in San Francisco. So she came to Italy, married me, and then we came back. [Transcriber’s note: Matteo apparently met Inez, his future wife, while visiting San Francisco. After he returned to Italy, Inez followed and the two married in Italy in 1943. Matteo and Inez moved back to San Francisco, Inez’s hometown, in 1947.]

JUDITH: Ah, yeah. And you were able to resume your trade, your craft?

MATTEO: Well, because I was lucky, I told you…

JUDITH: Mr. Matteucci needed a…

MATTEO: …needed a watchmaker, and he was Italian. Otherwise, I would have ended up to make terrazzo.

JUDITH: Marble?

MATTEO: Marble, yes. But that was a very…

JUDITH: Fortuitous moment.

MATTEO: Well, yes.

JUDITH: You speak good English now. Did you study or pick it up as you went along?

MATTEO: [Chuckles] Oh, god. Oh, thank you very much. I don’t speak that well.

JUDITH: Yeah…

MATTEO: Well, see I hated languages. I hated it. I don’t say now I hate language, but when I came here, I hated language. As a matter of fact, in Italy, see French is compulsory in school.  And I had to learn French, but believe me, a week later I forgot. Just to get by. And now I can read a little bit, but definitely I cannot speak the words. I cannot even understand French. Because I just hate language. But when I came here, see I’m a very practical person. When I came here, I knew without the language I would be nothing and I’m not the type to be nothing.  I mean, I don’t want to be a big shot or anything…

JUDITH: Yeah.

MATTEO: …but to live you just have to learn what is necessary. And I went to night school for about three months, twice a week, I think. Galileo School, yeah.

JUDITH: Oh, Galileo.

MATTEO: Night school. They had the language there, and what I learned there was the foundation. Because, see anything you really want to learn something good, it takes longer.  But as long as we build .. from the foundation, then the rest is easier. It’s not easy, but it’s correct.

JUDITH: Um-hmm.

MATTEO: See, what I learned in school, uh, it was the foundation anyway. And then, see, the words you can…

JUDITH: …pick up and practice…

MATTEO: …in five or six months. But the verbs and all the rest of the grammar, that’s the most important to put together words. Because, you know, if the words you cannot put together doesn’t mean anything, and that’s why I was concerned. And I liked to learn English because I felt like I was a grown-up baby. I couldn’t do anything. I needed help of everybody, to help me, to be an interpreter. So many times, I was downtown I saw something in the window I wanted to buy and I couldn’t do anything because nobody could understand me. And that was a very embarrassing and painful thing, too.

JUDITH: Oh.

MATTEO: Because when you cannot explain … and I’m not the type … see I’m the type which I must socialize. I like to, you know, somebody asks you some questions and I want to be capable to answer … and I didn’t, I was not capable at all. And then my unlucky moment when Mr. Matteucci went out to lunch or something, immediately the phone rang. Hello, hello.

JUDITH: Oh.

MATTEO: Blah, blah, blah. Sorry, I cannot speak English. That’s the first phrase I learned.

JUDITH: [laughter]

MATTEO: So and that was it … it’s very hard to learn a language.  It’s very, very hard. It’s unbelievable, unbelievable, the difficulty it is to learn a language, to be understood. ‘Cause I’m sure I could never learn English the way it should be, but at least people can understand me.

JUDITH: Oh, yeah.

MATTEO: That’s the most important thing.

JUDITH: Well, now, how did you learn your skills? Were you apprenticed…?

MATTEO: Oh, yeah.

JUDITH: …or was your father?

MATTEO: My father was a jeweler.

JUDITH: OK. In that town?

MATTEO: Yes. I grew up in this business. And actually, I didn’t go to any school. Because, as a matter of fact, this is funny. [chuckles] See, I was … we were eight boys in my family, and seven are jewelers. And, uh, I was the seventh one. So everybody was older than I, except one. And my brothers worked in my father’s store, and I learned a lot just watching, you know, looking. And I loved watches. I loved watches. Not much jewelry. A little bit, the jewelry, but watches I really loved it. And I was, uh, curious to dismantle something. So I was five years old when I start to dismantle watches. But I could not put it together. Take them out without breaking though, but I could not put it together.

So then, what could I do? I didn’t want to be punished. But I was smart enough because I learned a lot from my older brothers. Put them in a box and leave them someplace. I’ve never been punished because they never caught me. They knew it was me who did that, but they could never punish me because I never got caught. And, uh, I continued to do that. Then finally, a few years later, now I could put it together. But the first watch I repaired, I was 10 years old. It was running. I don’t know how good it was running. And I wish I had it in my possession, but I don’t. But I found one, uh, similar to the one I repaired, and I repaired that one. And once in a while, I use it. It was made in the ‘20s.

JUDITH: So you learned all your skills from your father and your brothers?

MATTEO: No, no, my father he was busy with the business. But the third brother taught me watchmaking. He went to school, and he taught me. And another brother, another two brothers, as a matter of fact, they taught me. One was my teacher also. He was very good. He had the skills more than anybody else. He was a watchmaker/jeweler, also. And for both he went to school. But he was a very fine jeweler, very fine jeweler, but the worst watchmaker I ever saw.

JUDITH: [laughter]

MATTEO: He was a bad watchmaker. Believe me, he really was bad. But he didn’t like either one, so he quit there and went to work for a bank. But he … he never exercised his profession. But he was very, very active in the bank, and then he was very successful. He became one of the managers or something. You know, he was successful. And, uh…

JUDITH: Are you the only brother to come to America?

MATTEO: I am the only one. Yeah.

JUDITH: Wow.

MATTEO: The only one in the family.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

MATTEO: Not my nephew or anything. I have a few nephews...

[Transcriber’s note: there is a short break in recording here, as apparently a customer has entered the Matteucci store.]

JUDITH: Do you go back to Italy?

MATTEO: Oh, yes. I go often.

JUDITH: Let’s see. You’re the only one to come to America?

MATTEO: Yes.

JUDITH: Now did you come to San Francisco for a special reason? Did you have relatives?

MATTEO: My wife was born here.

JUDITH: Oh, that’s right.

MATTEO: She was living here. So that’s the reason that I came here. So I knew I was coming here before I even left Italy.

JUDITH: And were you … have you been involved with the Italian community most of your life here?

MATTEO: Uh, no.

JUDITH: …retaining culture?

MATTEO: No. I am known with the Italian community. Very well known.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

MATTEO: But I didn’t get involved with any clubs or anything for two reasons. The main reason is that I’m extremely, extremely busy man. Because I run the business, I do most of my repair … watch repair, jewelry repair … and that keeps me busy, so I don’t have time to take time off to, you know, go to the club and socialize. But I socialize, too. But not … I must go there because the meeting is there, or things like that.

JUDITH: And not exclusively the Italian community?

MATTEO: No. To me, people are people, Italian or not Italian. But don’t misunderstand me. I’m not ashamed to be Italian, and I love Italians. But I love black people, I love Chinese people [chuckles] I love other races. To me, people are people. I really believe in this. I always did.

JUDITH: That’s very American.

MATTEO: Uh, yeah. I guess. Yeah.

JUDITH: Do you live in North Beach? Did you always…?

MATTEO: No, I never lived here in North Beach. But I feel I live here because most of the time I spend in North Beach.

JUDITH: Yeah.

MATTEO: But, no, right now I live in, uh…

JUDITH: And much of your clientele is here?

MATTEO: Uh, well, my clientele is not in North Beach. No.

JUDITH: Oh?

MATTEO: Mostly, I would say that 60 percent are from outside. More than that. Seventy-five percent are from outside the district and the city. I have customers from, uh, Stockton, South San Francisco, Oakland, San Rafael, all over. A lot of people moved and they keep coming here.

JUDITH: Wonderful. So you have a loyal clientele?

MATTEO: Yes, yes.

JUDITH: And you said you go back to Italy and have been back to your family and town?

MATTEO: Yes. I go often. I mean not every year. I wish I could, but, uh, I can’t. Every three years, four years sometimes.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

MATTEO: But we correspond and make phone calls very often and everything. I am very close to my family.

JUDITH: Do you still do … make jewelry and things or mostly watchmaking?

MATTEO: Oh, yeah.

JUDITH: Oh, good.

MATTEO: When I have time. See it all depends on the time available. Because I don’t have much time. My time with … the store takes most of my time. But I do work at night at home which I … like repairing, I cannot do it here. Some repairs I do here, but most I do at home.

JUDITH: Do you have any, uh, very special clocks in here?

MATTEO: Special clocks?

JUDITH: Very old, very intricate?

MATTEO: Oh, yeah. We have quite a few special clocks.

JUDITH: There’s a lovely collection of them.

MATTEO: Oh, thank you. Yeah, I have quite a few.

JUDITH: Well, this has been very helpful and interesting, to learn about you and the store.

MATTEO: Oh, thank you. I’m sorry you had to wait.

JUDITH: Not at all. It seems to me you told me you did a recent repair on the clock and you had to get out on the ladder and work on it or…?

MATTEO: Oh, many times. Many times. Even now, somebody tried to open the door and broke the thing there. I was working on that. I was hoping to finish before tonight. One shot with a gun, uh, shot to the clock.

JUDITH: Oh!

MATTEO: Oh, yeah. Broke the dial, broke the glass. The glass is nothing. But the dial, I had a hard time to replace that.

JUDITH: Yeah.

MATTEO: And broke the mechanism. For two months, I had to make the parts and I had to make at night because during the day, I cannot do it here.

JUDITH: So you made the parts?

MATTEO: Oh, yes. I made them. Not just I made the parts. I made the movement system there, because they stole the movement when I moved here. They stole the macchina, and I made one there…

JUDITH: That’s what you were telling me.

MATTEO: …made by me 19 years ago. It’s still going.

JUDITH: Wow.

MATTEO: So I’m really proud about that.

JUDITH: You certainly should be.

MATTEO: Well, I made the mechanism. And as a matter of fact [chuckles] this is the only clock that runs in San Francisco correctly.

JUDITH: You think so?

MATTEO: I know so.

JUDITH: That’s wonderful. The only public clock that you look at?

MATTEO: Well, see Samuel’s … that’s the other four-dial clock system in San Francisco … that’s been stopped for two years.

JUDITH: Which one is that?

MATTEO: The Samuel’s on Market Street. [Transcriber’s note: per the NoeHill website, Samuels Jewelers opened its first store location at 895 Market Street in in San Francisco 1909. In 1915, founder Albert Samuels commissioned a street clock from Joseph Mayer of Seattle, and when Samuels moved his store to 856 Market Street in 1943 the clock moved with him. The clock became a San Francisco landmark in 1975. The clock, which had been stopped since 1990, was restored to operation and its original appearance by the Market Street Timekeepers and rededicated in 2000.]

JUDITH: Oh, the Samuel clock on Market Street. Yes.

MATTEO: It’s a different brand, but a four-dial like this. That’s been stopped for over two years.

JUDITH: I know. They’re thinking of trying to find money to repair it.

[END OF INTERVEW]

[Transcriber’s note: after the interview finished, Judith asked Matteo some questions about spelling of his name and date of birth.]