Transcript: Lillian Baldassari (1916-2004)

Preface

The following oral history transcript is the result of a tape-recorded interview with Lillian Baldassari on May 23, 1996. The interview was conducted by Judith Robinson, an author, historian and member of the Telegraph Hill Dwellers, a community organization. The interview took place at Lillian’s home in North Beach in San Francisco, California. This interview is part of the Italian-Americans of North Beach series of interviews that were conducted in 1996 by Robinson with funding from U.C. Berkeley’s Bancroft Library. The interview was transcribed and edited by John Doxey in 2022. Note that this transcript has no accompanying photographs.

Format: Originally recorded on two audio cassette tapes. Duration is 1 hour, 29 minutes.

Attribution: This interview is property of the Telegraph Hill Dwellers. Quotes, reproductions and excerpts must be cited as follows: Oral history interview with Lillian Baldassari, May 23, 1996. Telegraph Hill Dwellers Oral History Project.

Summary: Lillian Baldassari was born in 1916 in Galveston, Texas, the youngest of six children. Her parents, immigrants from Tuscany, ran a successful grocery store in Galveston, a consuming occupation that left little time for other activities. Lillian came to San Francisco in 1934 with Caesar Baldassari, the man who would become her husband. Lillian was just 18 and hadn’t completed high school, but she fell in love with San Francisco and decided to stay. Caesar worked as a busboy at Bimbo’s 365 Club and as a baseball umpire before embarking on a career as a railroad parts salesman. Caesar and Lillian raised two children in western San Francisco neighborhoods before moving to Edith Street in North Beach in 1964. Lillian was proud of her Italian heritage, and she was active with the San Francisco Italian Athletic Club and Telegraph Hill Dwellers. She passed away in 2004, a few weeks before her 88th birthday. A San Francisco Chronicle obituary is available online at https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/BALDASSARI-Lillian-2786923.php

Lillian was 80 years old when she was interviewed by Judith Robinson. In this interview, Lillian speaks of her move to San Francisco in 1934 with Caesar Baldassari after Caesar’s father was murdered in Texas; her parents’ emigration from Lucca, Italy, to Chicago soon after their marriage; her upbringing in Galveston as the youngest of six children; the hard work her parents put into running Queens Grocery Store, a prosperous business; lively goings on in Galveston, including circus “freak shows” and Gulf Coast rum runners; her marriage to Caesar at St. Brigid’s Church, which wasn’t her plan when she came to San Francisco; Caesar’s early work as a busboy at Bimbo’s 365 Club and as an umpire for semi-pro baseball games; attending the 1939 World’s Fair at Treasure Island; her work at the Joseph Magnin Co. department store at Stonestown; how raising children and helping her husband manage his business kept her very busy in mid-life; how Italian was the only language spoken at 12pm family lunches when she was growing up; her first trip to Italy with her father to visit family in Lucca; her father making wine in Galveston during Prohibition; going to the 1933-34 Chicago World’s Fair with her sister, where she was whisked into an ice skating show; working as a young girl at her family’s grocery store, where she delivered groceries and kept tabs on shoplifters; her daughter’s swimming activities, which included training with legendary coach Charlie Sava; her enjoyment of lunch events at the Italian Athletic Club; her work with Telegraph Hill Dwellers; her mother’s passion for opera; the beautiful Italian horse-drawn buggy that was purchased for her father’s grocery store by a wealthy Texan woman, which now appears in a Smithsonian museum; descriptions of Italian foods prepared by her mother, including baccala and bollito; enjoying her first-ever birthday cake at age 80; her move to Edith Street in 1964 and noteworthy North Beach neighbors.

Judith Robinson has reviewed the transcript and corrections and emendations have been made. The reader should keep in mind that he or she is reading a transcript of spoken, rather than written, prose.

Interview

JUDITH: [00:00:03] This should be Lillian Baldassari on May 23rd, 1996, interviewed by Judith Robinson at her house on Edith Alley in North Beach.

LILLIAN: Uh, I was going with my husband at the time. And his father was held up as he was parking his car in the garage. And they killed him.

JUDITH: In Texas?

LILLIAN: In Texas. So his mother was very distraught. And my husband had two sisters out here in San Francisco. So his older brother, the two boys got together, and the older brother said that they would … “why not take mom out there and she'll be happier than she is, you know, with the surroundings of where everything happened.” So he drove her out. The older brother, Carlo. And so … so, of course, my mother being Italian said “absolutely not.” [laughter] And I just happened to have a real nice uncle. And he says, “why don't you let her go and see some of the world?” Says “have Flora go with her.” And that was my sister. So my mother agreed to that. So the three of us drove to San Francisco. We get here and her, the doctor … his mother had cancer of the liver, and the doctor said “she'll never make it back to Texas in a car.” So it was either staying here, him going back alone and me going back alone or whatever. So we decided to get married. [chuckles] And my sister went back home. [chuckles] And that was about in 19, uh, I guess, 34.

JUDITH: Uh-huh. So that's when you moved here…?

LILLIAN: To San Francisco…

JUDITH: [00:01:40] But your mother and father were both Italian?

LILLIAN: Oh, yes. From Lucca, Italy. Uh-huh.

JUDITH: From Lucca? OK…

LILLIAN: I'm from first immigrant...

JUDITH: First generation.

LILLIAN: First generation immigrant. Immigrants, yeah.

JUDITH: OK.

LILLIAN: I’m [from] a family of six. And they're all gone. I'm the only one left.

JUDITH: Wow.

LILLIAN: I was the baby.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

LILLIAN: And, uh, I've gone to Italy twice with my mom…

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

LILLIAN: [00:02:10] …and my dad. And North Beach … we were living out in the Sunset, but we were just enthralled with North Beach here, you know. As a matter of fact, the supermarkets … we hadn't seen vegetables in Texas, like you saw here. It was just fabulous.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah.

LILLIAN: And then the entertainment here, too, on Broadway. You know, at one time right after the war, they said San Francisco had more entertainment than even New York at the time. And, uh, we were just in the right place at the right time.

JUDITH: So you moved here to the North Beach area?

LILLIAN: We moved here in ‘64. Uh-huh.

JUDITH: But you were familiar with it from 1934?

LILLIAN: Oh, yes. Because my husband was a commission man. Uh, he sold railroad supplies, and we had to entertain customers. And it was always North Beach. Always. Well, the restaurants and the nightclubs and so forth.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

LILLIAN: It has changed. [chuckles]

JUDITH: Yes, it sure has. Well, let's talk a little bit about your family first then, because one of our focuses is Italian-Americans.

LILLIAN: Uh-huh.

JUDITH: So how did your family come to America?

LILLIAN: [00:03:10] Uh, my mother was from a family of about 13. And I can tell you this ‘cause I was there. Uh, my father lived across the street, so to speak. ‘Cause I've been to their place. And, uh, evidently they fell in love and they got married. And, uh, she had a sister over in Chicago. And, uh, that's why they came to America, as a bride and groom. It was their honeymoon. And a funny little thing happened with my mom. She said that she couldn't stand the type of wine that they made here, so her father sent her a barrel of wine from Italy, if you please. [laughter]

JUDITH: To Chicago?

LILLIAN: To Chicago. [laughter]

JUDITH: Of red wine or white wine?

LILLIAN: It was white wine. [laughter]

JUDITH: How wonderful. On a ship and then...?

LILLIAN: I guess so. You know in those days I guess they didn't have the rules and regulations that they have now.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: I mean nowadays I don't think you could do it.

JUDITH: That's wonderful. So they honeymooned in Chicago with the sister visiting…?

LILLIAN: Uh-huh.

JUDITH: …and then decided to stay?

LILLIAN: They stayed. And, uh, my mother had, let's see, two boys. And then the third boy she had in Italy. He was the only one that was born out of the country. He has since passed on. Well, they've all passed on.

JUDITH: Your uncle?

LILLIAN: No, no. My brother.

JUDITH: Oh, brothers. I'm sorry.

LILLIAN: Yeah. And, uh, then my father went to work for, uh, what's that? … oh, that building … tractors … he went to work for, it's a very famous tractor company.

JUDITH: Deere? John Deere?

LILLIAN: Yeah. As a painter in Chicago.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: And the paint made him sick. So my mother had a sister in Galveston. And she had a grocery store. And I guess they corresponded. And she says “well, come on down here, and he can work in the store for us.” So that's how they got to Galveston. And that's why I was born there. [chuckles] Everybody else was born in Chicago or Italy.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: It sounds as if it's a typical immigrant family pattern…

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah.

JUDITH: …of following relatives.

LILLIAN: Right. Uh-huh. And then they got their own store in Galveston.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

LILLIAN: And, uh, I had a wonderful childhood in the grocery store business. Wonderful childhood. Did you want to hear about that?

JUDITH: Sure would.

LILLIAN: Uh, there was a club down there called Hollywood. And actually Galveston was the first Las Vegas. Only everything was illegal. But we had gambling, we had everything down there. The Boswell Sisters were singing down there. Phil Harris appeared down there. Ben Bruni [chuckles] and his band. And, uh, our store was right on the path where all these people went to this nightclub. And then we met all those people. Then we had Fort Crockett down there. All the soldiers were shopping at our store. And then, uh, we had a circus come into town. And they had the land across from my folks’, uh, grocery store. It was a piece of land, four blocks square. Didn't have any streets through it or anything. And that's where the circus was always put up. And … they closed the schools the day the circus had the parade, ‘cause we didn't have traffic in those days like it is now. And the advance man for the food for the animals would come and use our payphone to order the food. He’d come in two weeks before the circus. So one day he said to my mom, he says, “Miss Mencacci,” he says, “you know, the sideshow, people, uh, never have a good meal. And those are the people that are all demented and, you know, whatever. And he says “if you cook for them,” he says, “I'll pay you.” So anyway, she did. And we had the bearded lady and the guy … that ate with his feet and the demented girl. And we had about eight of those people at our table. So I always told my children that Jackie Kennedy could never make a statement like that. But I can. [laughter] I was at the table.

[Transcriber’s note: Per Wikipedia, the Boswell Sisters were an American singing trio of the jazz and swing eras, consisting of three sisters (Martha, Connie and Helvetia) that attained national prominence in the United States in the 1930s; Phil Harris began his music career as a drummer in San Francisco in the mid-1920s and went on to become a well-known singer in the 1930s; transcriber was unable to find internet reference to a musician named Ben Bruni; Fort Crockett is a former military installation on Galveston Island, originally built to defend the city and harbor of Galveston. During the 1920s and early 1930s, Fort Crockett housed the United States Army Air Corps' (USAAC) 3rd Attack Group.]

JUDITH: That's wonderful … that’s … all the day, all each day that the circus was in town she served them or just one time?

LILLIAN: No … it was one big dinner, yeah. Yeah.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm … I’ll be darned.

JUDITH: How old would you have been then about?

LILLIAN: I would say I'd be about 11, 12 years old.

JUDITH: Wow. Were you shocked by the sight of these people?

LILLIAN: No … because sideshow ... in those days you took it for granted. You didn't have all the people protesting, you know, like the animal rights people, and these people and these people.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

LILLIAN: They accepted it.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

LILLIAN: And they had a sideshow. And then you had the big circus.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm. Right.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Well, let's get some names then. What was your maiden name?

LILLIAN: Mencacci. M-E-N-C-A-C-C-I.

JUDITH: C-A-double C-I?

LILLIAN: Uh-huh.

JUDITH: And that was your mother … your father's name?

LILLIAN: My father’s name.

JUDITH: And, uh, what was your mother's maiden name?

LILLIAN: Nannini. N-A-N-N-I-N-I.

JUDITH: N-A-N-N-I-N-I?

LILLIAN: Right. Nannini.

JUDITH: And what was her first name?

LILLIAN: Uh, Georgia. I named my daughter after her.

JUDITH: That was her name in Italian? Georgia?

LILLIAN: Well, they call it Georgia.

JUDITH: Georgia. It’s spelled G-E-O-R…?

LILLIAN: You know, I don't remember.

JUDITH: Or with a C or a soft C?

LILLIAN: No, I don't think so. I think with a G.

JUDITH: G or a G-I-A?

LILLIAN: I would say. Georgia. [Transcriber’s note: the typical Italian spelling of this name is Giorgia]

JUDITH: And what was your father's first name?

LILLIAN: Sebastiano. Sebastian.

JUDITH: Sebastian? Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: And, uh, then you were Sebastiana or Sebastiano?

LILLIAN: No, I’m Lillian.

JUDITH: No, your father's name was Sebastian?

LILLIAN: Sebastiano.

JUDITH: Oh, O for a male?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: And then, uh, you were one of six children?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: The youngest of six.

LILLIAN: Mm-hmm.

JUDITH: And that was your maiden name?

LILLIAN: Mm-hmm.

JUDITH: OK. And, uh, well, go on, tell us a little more about your childhood there. And, uh…

LILLIAN: Well…

JUDITH: …you said you were en route to the nightclub, so you must have had a lot of other…?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: …interesting.

LILLIAN: Well, there was, uh, another sort of a club. It was over the Gulf of Mexico. Built high, you know, over the water. And, uh, in those days, of course as I said it was all illegal. So when the agents came to town, you had to go up like maybe 30 steps. And they, whoever was running the thing would see these agents, they knew who they were. Talk about technology today, nothing like yesterday. They push buttons and the dice table would turn around, become one of those things that you … everything would turn around and become legal. [laughter]

JUDITH: In a few seconds?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: So they'd hide everything in the club behind walls?

LILLIAN: Right, right. [laughter]

JUDITH: And everybody, there was some kind of warning. You would always know when the agents were in the…?

LILLIAN: And I guess, you know, these mafia people knew them. I went to school with two mafia kids. Great kids, great family.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: The Maceos. M-A-C-E-O.

JUDITH: Ah-ha. They were Texas mafia?

LILLIAN: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

JUDITH: How interesting.

LILLIAN: And we had the rum runners down there. They’d bring the … rum to a certain point in the Gulf of Mexico. And then they’d put ‘em in these, uh, sacks with the potatoes come in. What do you call that material?

JUDITH: Oh, yeah. Canvas or…

LILLIAN: No, it’s not canvas...

JUDITH: I get what you mean, yeah.

LILLIAN: Oh, what is it? Well, I can't think of it. But anyway, they’d put the rum in, and it would float and guys in canoes would go pick it up.

JUDITH: Oh, I see. In waterproof bags of some sort?

LILLIAN: They weren't waterproof, no. They were just … what do you call it that potatoes that come in? It's just little squares, the material. You can see through it almost.

JUDITH: Uh-huh. I know what you mean. But we're both blanking on the words.

LILLIAN: Uh-huh. And they pick it up and put it in the canoe.

JUDITH: Oh, the bottles would float?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah.

JUDITH: So they’d pick them up out of the delta there or…?

LILLIAN: Well, the boat would leave them in the Gulf of Mexico, and they would float, and the guys knew it was coming. So they'd be almost out there ready to pick it up.

JUDITH: Uh-huh. I love it.

LILLIAN: [laughter]

JUDITH: So that would have been during Prohibition?

LILLIAN: Oh, sure. [unintelligible word] during Prohibition.

JUDITH: Yeah, right.

LILLIAN: ‘Cause Prohibition wasn't what, ‘til ‘32 was it? I mean over?

JUDITH: [00:11:32] I'll have to research those dates again… [Transcriber’s note: Prohibition ended in 1933, when the 21st Amendment was ratified. The 21st Amendment repealed the 18th Amendment of 1919, ending the increasingly unpopular nationwide prohibition of alcohol.]

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: …but anyway, uh, so you had a fairly uh colorful childhood it seems?

LILLIAN: Oh, I had a wonderful childhood. Just wonderful. Yeah.

JUDITH: Uh-huh. And your father, uh, apparently prospered with his store?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah.

JUDITH: But you met this gentleman when you were how old?

LILLIAN: That I married?

JUDITH: Yeah.

LILLIAN: Oh, I was 18.

JUDITH: OK.

LILLIAN: I had a half a year of high school to go and didn't do it. [chuckles]

JUDITH: When … do you mind telling us what year you were born?

LILLIAN: ‘16. I'm 80.

JUDITH: OK. Really? You don't look that … um, what date in 1916?

LILLIAN: March 7th.

JUDITH: March 7th … Uh, so you left high school, followed him and your mother out here?

LILLIAN: My sister.

JUDITH: Your sister.

LILLIAN: To get his mother.

JUDITH: Alright. I didn't get that story quite clear. Who was held up and shot?

LILLIAN: His father. My husband's father.

JUDITH: Ah, your husband's father?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: OK. So he brought his sister and mother here?

LILLIAN: His … brother. See he has an older brother. I talked to him yesterday, as a matter of fact. My husband has passed away. But, uh, his brother drove the mother out after the murder, ‘cause she was so distraught. Because he had two sisters out here. And she stayed with the sisters. And then, uh, when it was time for her to come back, I guess she was going to stay a month or two months or whatever, she wanted to go back home. So then it was the younger boy, which was my husband, to go get her, to drive out to get her. Because in those days, as you know, who went on airplanes? Very few people.

JUDITH: Well, we didn't have airplanes in 1934…

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: …commercially, very many.

LILLIAN: So he drove out and I went with him and my sister. And then she went back and we got married.

JUDITH: OK. And, uh, his name was what Baldassari?

LILLIAN: Caesar. C-A-E-S-A-R.

JUDITH: C-A-E…?

LILLIAN: S-A-R.

JUDITH: S-A-R.

LILLIAN: Baldassari.

JUDITH: Baldassari. And where was his family from?

LILLIAN: Michigan. But they did come from Italy. I think it's called Santa Maria.

JUDITH: Ah, I've heard of others from Santa Maria. Where is Santa Maria?

LILLIAN: I have no idea. [chuckles]

JUDITH: Is that northern or…? [Transcriber’s note: the location of the Santa Maria mentioned by Lillian is unknown. There are many towns in Italy named Santa Maria.]

LILLIAN: I would say it's north. I would say it’s north. Yeah.

JUDITH: Yes, OK, I think it is up north along the coast. Um, so then you married and your husband got a job here and settled in the city. And what was his work again? … you said he worked for the railroad?

LILLIAN: [00:13:57] Yeah, well, that was a few years afterwards. He was a [unintelligible word]  for the railroad, for Southern Pacific. And then, uh, he went into selling parts to railroads. ‘Cause that was, you know, during the war and after the war. And they had to have railroads to transport the men and so forth. And, you know, like brass stuff that goes on engines and whatever. All these things that … parts. Railroad parts.

JUDITH: So he worked for a company that sold supplies to railroads?

LILLIAN: That’s right. He represented several companies.

JUDITH: Oh, I see. OK. He was a sales representative.

LILLIAN: And also, uh, I don't know whether it was on weekends or at night, he would unload trains that … brought soldiers bodies back. That's right. Somebody had to do it.

JUDITH: During World War Two?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

LILLIAN: And when we first came here, he was a busboy up at, uh, this nightclub up here. What’s it called?

JUDITH: Uh, Bimbo 365?

LILLIAN: Yeah, 365. [Transcriber’s note: Agostino Giuntoli, an immigrant from Tuscany, opened Bimbo’s 365 Club at 365 Market Street in 1931. Per the club’s website, Bimbo’s “was crowded with celebrities and stars from across America … On stage, lines of long-stemmed chorus girls kicked high to the music … Gin was served in coffee cups while everybody puzzled over the optical illusion provided by Dolfina, The Girl in the Fishbowl: she appeared to swim nude in the fish tank behind the bar.” Bimbo’s 365 Club moved to its current location at 1025 Columbus Avenue in 1951. Today the club is run by Giuntoli’s son-in-law, Graziano Cerchiai and his two grandsons, Michael and Gino Cerchiai.]

JUDITH: Really?

LILLIAN: Yeah. He was a busboy.

JUDITH: I'll be darned.

LILLIAN: Sure. We got married … we had no intention of getting married, you know, we were going to go back to Texas.

JUDITH: [00:15:03] How old was he when you married?

LILLIAN: Uh, he was seven years older.

JUDITH: OK. That would make him 28 and seven is...

LILLIAN: 25.

JUDITH: He was 25.

LILLIAN: Mm-hmm.

JUDITH: Uh, had he finished high school?

LILLIAN: No. He’d gone to, finished A&M. Texas A&M.

JUDITH: Oh, he had a college degree?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: [00:15:23] And do you remember Bimbo’s 365…

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah.

JUDITH: …when it was kind of in its heyday?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Let's talk about that a little bit, because I remember I was just the other day, I can see it out my window, too. The sign. About the, uh, the girl in the fishbowl.

LILLIAN: Yeah, yeah.

JUDITH: Uh, tell me something about that, ‘cause I don't believe I ever saw it. Just pictures.

LILLIAN: Well, we were in there one night, and I said “we got to go see her,” you know. So we went right up and really looked. And she was there. [chuckles]

JUDITH: Uh-huh. Did she … she wore a bathing suit, but kind of...?

LILLIAN: Yeah, well, it was rather sexy. But nothing like it would be today.

JUDITH: No. And … it was a large tank, wasn't it?

LILLIAN: Yes.

JUDITH: And pretty young women would swim in it.

LILLIAN: Right. [chuckles]

JUDITH: Isn't that something. On Columbus Avenue. And it's still at the same location, isn't it…?

LILLIAN: I think it is, yeah.

JUDITH: …that it was then. Right down between, uh, Chestnut and Francisco.

LILLIAN: Mm-hmm.

JUDITH: And so your husband was a busboy there for his first getting started job?

LILLIAN: Yeah, I don't know for how long, but he was a busboy ‘til something else came up.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: And then he umpired baseball, uh, here … the playgrounds for the semi-pros. And then also at the World's Fair on weekends.

JUDITH: The 1939 World's Fair on Treasure Island? [Transcriber’s note: Per Wikipedia, The Golden Gate International Exposition, held at Treasure Island, was a World’s Fair celebrating, among other things, the city's two newly built bridges. The San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge opened in 1936 and the Golden Gate Bridge in 1937. The exposition opened from February 1939 through October 1939, and from May 1940 through September 1940. Treasure Island, a flat artificial island attached to Yerba Buena Island, was built for the Exposition near where the Oakland span and the San Francisco span of the Bay Bridge join.]

LILLIAN: Yeah, mm-hmm.

JUDITH: Ah, he umpired baseball games?

LILLIAN: He was quite a sportsman. And had … professional football been the way it is today, in his day, he would have been another Joe Montana. He was very, very good.

JUDITH: Really?

LILLIAN: Yeah, uh-huh.

JUDITH: Did he have a lifelong, uh, following of sports? A great fondness for it?

LILLIAN: Oh, yes. He loved sports, uh-huh. That's how I got to know football and so forth. Because if I didn't, I was going to stay home all the time. [chuckles]

JUDITH: Yeah.

LILLIAN: And then when he umpired on weekends, I’d always take the children to the playground, wherever he was umpiring, and they’d be in the swing and so forth. And then we'd all come home on the streetcar together.

JUDITH: Oh. Well, now, where would you go and do that? And what streetcar do you remember would you ride?

LILLIAN: Well, we lived out in the Richmond in … about 25th Avenue. Whatever streetcar that was. And, uh, whatever playground he was assigned to.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: We'd go and come home on...

JUDITH: …whatever streetcar was…?

LILLIAN: Yeah, yeah.

JUDITH: The streetcars were wonderful.

LILLIAN: Yeah. And the kids loved it, you know?

JUDITH: Yeah. So you are pretty much a housewife…

LILLIAN: Yes.

JUDITH: …and mother? And you raised how many children?

LILLIAN: Two. And I also … I worked … I worked at Joseph Magnin’s out at Stonestown. And I'd work like Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays. The days that the girls had off. I replaced them. And then on the weekends I didn't work because they were there. Things like that. [Transcriber’s note: Per Wikipedia, The Joseph Magnin Company was a high-end specialty department store founded in San Francisco by Joseph Magnin, a son of Isaac Magnin, founder of the I. Magnin department store. Joseph Magnin Co. and I. Magnin Co. were rivals. The original Joseph Magnin store, which opened in 1913, was located at the corner of Stockton and O'Farrell Streets. By 1967, Joseph Magnin Co. had become one of the premier luxury department store chains in the country, with more than 32 stores. in 1984, the company filed for bankruptcy and closed its stores.]

JUDITH: Yeah.

LILLIAN: Just part time.

JUDITH: Joseph Magnin was such a wonderful store, wasn't it?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: I remember the downtown [store] very well.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: It's a shame we've lost it. Your children are … you had a daughter, Georgia, and...?

LILLIAN: Yeah. And a son, Caesar.

JUDITH: Alright. And are they both still living?

LILLIAN: Yeah. My daughter lives in San Francisco. My son lives in San Anselmo.

JUDITH: Oh. Are you a grandmother?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah. I have two grandsons.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: My son's.

JUDITH: Your son’s?

LILLIAN: Yeah. My daughter has no children.

JUDITH: [00:18:33] OK. Well, uh, what do you remember about the important things about living here in the Italian community? Did you all become active in the Italian community or were you pretty much integrated into the, uh, regular…?

LILLIAN: Well, uh, we didn't become active. Not because we didn't want to. It's just that my husband's health kept failing. And I was very busy with the kids and him and running his office and so forth.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm. So you became a businesswoman…?

LILLIAN: Yeah, uh-huh. And that … but we loved, you know, loved North Beach. We like the traffic and whatever. [chuckles]

JUDITH: Uh-huh. Uh, but you weren't active in the church here or…

LILLIAN: No.

JUDITH: …anything like that?

LILLIAN: We got married at St. Brigid's on Van Ness. [Transcriber’s note: St. Brigid’s Church, situated at the corner of Van Ness Avenue and Broadway, was closed by the San Francisco Archdiocese in 1994, apparently due to declining parish membership and the high cost of seismic retrofitting following the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake. St. Brigid opened as a parish in 1864. A previous church building was destroyed in 1897. The current building was damaged by the 1906 Earthquake and Fire, but reopened just seven months after the earthquake. The building was sold to the Academy of Art University in 2005.]

JUDITH: Oh, OK. The one that, uh…?

LILLIAN: It’s right there on, what, Union and … no, Pacific…

JUDITH: That’s the one they just closed...

LILLIAN: Broadway. Broadway and Van Ness, isn’t it?

JUDITH: Yes … I think it's Broadway. The one they've just closed.

LILLIAN: Oh, they did close it?

JUDITH: I think so.

LILLIAN: Uh-huh, yeah.

JUDITH: Uh, but so your life was very integrated into American life?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah.

JUDITH: You didn’t...? And, uh, did you bring … did your mother and father bring some old, um, traditional festivals and traditions to your family that you carried on in the ways you, for example, celebrated Easter or Christmas…

LILLIAN: Well, I just think that…

JUDITH: …or religious events?

LILLIAN: Of course, you know, we were on the poor side. So we had like ice cream maybe once a week. And we had a cake at Christmas time. But, uh, I think the … the nicest thing that I remember when we all sat at the table at 12 o’clock was our big meal. We had to speak Italian or else. And I'm very grateful for that.

JUDITH: At the family meal at noon?

LILLIAN: Uh-huh. We had to speak Italian.

JUDITH: Do you have an Italian … a northern Lucca Italian accent?

LILLIAN: I would say so, yeah.

JUDITH: Yeah. And you're bilingual obviously?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: That's interesting. Did you instill that in your children?

LILLIAN: No. ‘Cause my husband didn't speak the Italian. Hardly any Italian.

JUDITH: Really?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Was he also first generation?

LILLIAN: [00:20:45] Yeah, Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, my … when my dad took me to Italy one time, I think I met, uh, Primo Carnera. He was a prizefighter. And I was, you know, about that high. And he starts to shake hands with me. And his hand came at me like a big pot. [laughter] [Transcriber’s note: Per Wikipedia, Primo Carnera, nicknamed the Ambling Alp, was an Italian professional boxer and wrestler who reigned as the boxing World Heavyweight Champion from mid-1933 to mid-1934. He won more fights by knockout than any other heavyweight champion in boxing history.]

And then my father met a man on the boat, and he was going to see his sister, close to where we were gonna go. And he says “I want you to come over and see my sister, meet my sister.” So we went and, uh, he met us at the bottom of the hill. She lived way up on a hill. And they had a jackass down there waiting for me to ride. And, uh, because I was, I think around nine at the time. So the men are walking and I'm on the jackass and I'm getting hungry. And I guess I made a pest of myself or something, I don't know. But a hen laid an egg, and they happened to see her lay the egg. So they went and got the egg and punched a hole and I drank the egg. [chuckles]

JUDITH: What a marvelous memory. Fresh egg. Just warm in your hand.

LILLIAN: It was still warm, right. [laughter]

JUDITH: Yeah, as you were trotting on through the countryside on the jackass?

LILLIAN: Yeah, right. [laughter]

JUDITH: That's wonderful. That's a wonderful story. Well, your father took you to Italy quite young, then?

LILLIAN: Oh, yes. And when we got to New York, my father was so germ conscious … before he put me to bed, he went out and bought a newspaper. And he spread the newspaper all over the bed … And then he put the newspaper over me. And then the blanket. Because germs don't live on … print. Printers ink, rather.

JUDITH: How interesting.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Well, you know, there's a good reason why we say don't let the bedbugs bite.

LILLIAN: That's right. [laughter]

JUDITH: There were a lot of them in those days.

LILLIAN: That’s right.

JUDITH: There were no disinfectants.

LILLIAN: That’s right.

JUDITH: That's interesting. So he laid newspapers beneath you and over you? In other words, you were surrounded by these protective layers?

LILLIAN: That’s right, yeah.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: And then another time in...

JUDITH: In hotels and boarding houses?

LILLIAN: This was a hotel.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: We were just waiting for the next … the boat was leaving the next day, you know.

JUDITH: On the way to Italy?

LILLIAN: To Italy. Yeah, uh-huh.

JUDITH: You left a boat from Chicago? Down the St. Lawrence was it…?

LILLIAN: [00:22:59] No, this was Galveston. We took the train to New York.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: And then we took the boat from New York to Italy.

JUDITH: Right. Oh, so this was in a hotel in New York?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: OK.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: And, uh, so you went once when you were nine. Was that your first trip?

LILLIAN: Uh-huh.

JUDITH: And when did you go again with…?

LILLIAN: I think I … I was 14 the second time.

JUDITH: And, uh, he would take you back to Lucca?

LILLIAN: Yeah, uh-huh. He always went to see his relatives … and my folks … I mean my mom's folks lived across...

JUDITH: Across the street, right?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Did your mother go on these trips?

LILLIAN: No, un-huh. She stayed with the store.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Well, now your father, uh, refresh my memory. He … he then he became a storekeeper, basically? That was his business…?

LILLIAN: Yeah, he had a grocery store.

JUDITH: OK. And, uh, do you still communicate with any of your family in Italy?

LILLIAN: No.

JUDITH: Any relatives or any cousins or…? OK.

LILLIAN: [00:24:01] Our store in Galveston was called … Queens Grocery Store. And in high school they called me Queenie. [laughter]

JUDITH: Oh, that's nice.

LILLIAN: And when I was very, very young I had typhoid fever. ‘Cause I used to have straight hair. And I lost all my hair, and it came out curly. But when I was in bed with typhoid fever, I happened to have three goats. And I used to take ‘em … we had this big lot where the circus used to be, you know. And I'd take them over there for the day and they'd eat all the grass and so forth. And when I became ill with typhoid fever, my father brings them up the stairs to my bedroom so I could see my pets.

JUDITH: Oh. That’s wonderful.

LILLIAN: So everybody says “talk about daddy's little girl. She was it.” [laughter]

JUDITH: Were you the only daughter?

LILLIAN: No. But my other … my sister was about eight years older than I.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: And, uh, I don’t know, she just didn't have it. She was always mad at something. [laughter]

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: But I was daddy's little girl.

JUDITH: Yeah. So you were one of two daughters…?

LILLIAN: And four brothers.

JUDITH: Four brothers, OK. Uh, did your father and mother ever visit you in San Francisco?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah. When Georgia was born, she came over here. Helped me feed her and so forth.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: Yeah. And then my dad came. And as a matter of fact, we made some, you know … from a lot of little movies that my husband took, we're making a video thing. And, uh, it's been in the process now. And I saw the sample. It’s going to be really great. To see my mom and my brothers and my sister and my dad.

JUDITH: Great idea. Putting together old photographs and film clips and…?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: That's a wonderful thing to do.

LILLIAN: Uh-huh, yeah ... My son, he was, uh, I don't think he was even two, and I'm putting him on my dad's shoulder. And my dad was bald and I'm taking his hand and petting the head, you know, as a little baby. [laughter]

JUDITH: So your father lost his hair?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah, when he was around 22.

JUDITH: Right. Did your parents live well along into their…?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah. My father was 88, and I think my mom was about 86. So they lived a good life.

JUDITH: Uh-huh … father 88, and your mother was 86?

LILLIAN: What is so funny was when he passed away … of course I was out here. But my sister told me that when they picked up his body they says “could we have his dentures?” She says “he doesn't have any dentures. They’re in his mouth. Those are his teeth.” [chuckles]

JUDITH: All that good, healthy food and water...

LILLIAN: That's right.

JUDITH: …and his germ consciousness.

LILLIAN: Yeah. And good wine.

JUDITH: He had his own teeth, did he?

LILLIAN: [laughter]

JUDITH: That's wonderful. And good wine. Now, did he make wine?

LILLIAN: Yes, we sure did. I always tell people that's why my feet are purple. [laughter]

JUDITH: Well, tell me something about the winemaking in Galveston. That must have been interesting.

LILLIAN: Well, we’d just buy the grapes and make the wine.

JUDITH: He had a supplier of grapes?

LILLIAN: [00:26:47] He wanted wine for dinner. You know, 12 o’clock we had wine. My mother used to say, imagine saying this to a teenager today, “get some wine and get some color in your cheeks.” My mother used to say that to me.

JUDITH: Sure.

LILLIAN: Imagine telling a teenager today. [laughter]

JUDITH: I know it. Uh, was the wine good, as you remember?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah. Uh-huh, yeah.

JUDITH: That's marvelous. Do you remember his crushing the grapes and doing all of that?

LILLIAN: No preparation.

JUDITH: So he didn't have a system at home? He did it somewhere else out of the house?

LILLIAN: No, he did it at home. But he'd do it real late at night. Like at midnight.

JUDITH: Uh-huh. Oh, because it was Prohibition.

LILLIAN: That's right. And he had to draw the shades and, of course, the store was closed. We all closed at midnight and so forth. And all we had for air was the fan, an electric fan going around.

JUDITH: Sure.

LILLIAN: And it was kind of miserable.

JUDITH: Hot?

LILLIAN: Yeah. Especially in Galveston. It's very humid.

JUDITH: Yeah, I’m told.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Uh, well, did you ever see any of the winemaking activities in this area?

LILLIAN: Oh, yes, I...

JUDITH: …of course, everybody here made their own wine.

LILLIAN: I, uh … well, I don't know about local people here. But I have a wine person [unintelligible words here] from somebody around here.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: And, uh, but we're very good friends with the Fortinos. The Fortino winery down in Gilroy. [Transcriber’s note: Per the winery’s website, Fortino Winery was established in 1970 when Ernest and Marie Fortino purchased a vineyard in Gilroy that had been growing since the 1930s and had become run down. Ernest and Marie both emigrated to the United States from Italy.]

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: We go to their affairs all the time.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm. Fortino?

LILLIAN: Mm-hmm. F-O-R-T-I-N-O.

JUDITH: Uh-huh. Uh, but you never saw it made here in San Francisco?

LILLIAN: No … like in the home or something?

JUDITH: …in the basements.

LILLIAN: No. You see Prohibition was over, you know.

JUDITH: Well, in ‘34. Yeah.

LILLIAN: Yeah. And they didn't have to hide all of that. And they didn't have to have wine presses and all of that stuff.

JUDITH: But you had one that you acquired from some North Beach person?

LILLIAN: Yeah. It's right on the building where you come in.

JUDITH: Oh, I have to notice it...

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: How wonderful. Well, there was a lot of it here in North Beach.

LILLIAN: Well, I'm sure…

JUDITH: Tom Cara told me how his family made it right down here on Lombard... [Transcriber’s note: an oral history of Thomas Cara, conducted by Judith Robinson in 1993 and 1994, appears on the Telegraph Hill Dwellers website at https://www.thd.org/oral-history.]

LILLIAN: Uh-huh.

JUDITH: His father had the press.

LILLIAN: Well, he lived here since I was very young child, didn't he?

JUDITH: Yes, he was born here.

LILLIAN: And also, uh, you know who Art Linkletter is? [Transcriber’s note: Arthur Linkletter was a radio and television personality from the mid-1930s to the early 1960s. He lived for a time in San Francisco.]

JUDITH: Sure.

LILLIAN: When he used to have a program, he had an Italian bandleader. This bandleader, I remember hearing it on the radio, lived right up the street on Lombard. And didn’t they have a fire right after the quake or something?

JUDITH: I don't know. In 1906?

LILLIAN: Yeah. And they used the wine to put the fires out.

JUDITH: Oh, yes, I have heard that story.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: But you remember … well, of course, you weren’t here in 1906. [chuckles]

LILLIAN: No, I heard … Linkletter, I heard the bandleader that worked for Linkletter, he was an Italian fellow, I don't remember his name. First name is Tony, I think. But he, uh, was saying about his folks using the wine to put the fire out.

JUDITH: Oh, that's wonderful.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: And where exactly was that located? That they did this?

LILLIAN: Well, they lived up on Lombard. But I don't know, I guess everybody participated in trying to put the fire out.

JUDITH: With their wine.

LILLIAN: Well, you know, when push comes to shove, you got to do something.

JUDITH: Well, that's a good story. I hadn’t heard that.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Uh, what about other activities here in the neighborhood or in the city that you remember from … some of the highlights of being here? I mean, you were here for the ‘39 fair. Do you remember, did you attend that?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah. Many times. Uh-huh.

JUDITH: What was it … tell us something about what you remember of that.

LILLIAN: Well, there isn't too much that I... [chuckles]

JUDITH: Highlights? Does something jump out at you?

LILLIAN: No, it's just like a regular ordinary fair, you know. The world's fair.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: And I, uh, I’d been to, uh … as a matter of fact, that, uh, animal, that man that ordered the feed for the animals, he lived in Chicago. So my sister and I went there to some fair then. And, uh, we were in some place where they were ice skating. And we were like maybe on the 15th row of seats. And one of the skaters comes up, and he grabs my arm and takes me down. And he and another guy and a girl were throwing me all up in the air and so forth. [laughter]

JUDITH: Onto the ice?

LILLIAN: Well, you know, it was in the show.

JUDITH: Yeah.

LILLIAN: They had to get somebody out of the audience and so they selected me.

JUDITH: How old would you have been then?

LILLIAN: [00:31:09] God, I was real little. [chuckles] But they were throwing me all over the place.

JUDITH: And you remember it vividly?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: That's a marvelous story. The Chicago World's Fair?

LILLIAN: The Chicago World’s Fair. 1939, was it?

JUDITH: Well, no. The Treasure Island was here in ‘39. I don't know when the Chicago fair was. But if you were little it would have been in the ‘20s… [Transcriber’s note: Lillian is apparently referring to having attended the Chicago World’s Fair that was held from 1933 to 1934.]

[Transcriber’s note: there is a break in the recording here]

JUDITH: …pooling? That's marvelous. With your … your sister’s eight years older?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Do you remember that train trip?

LILLIAN: I know we stopped in St. Louis. And, uh…

JUDITH: Did you have a … did you … were you in a Pullman car? Or did you sleep…?

LILLIAN: A Pullman car, yeah.

JUDITH: You had a Pullman berth?

LILLIAN: I think so, yeah.

JUDITH: That they put up and took down at night?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: But you were 13 or 14? And your sister was eight years older.

LILLIAN: Yeah. Uh-huh.

JUDITH: So they trusted you to her?

LILLIAN: And then this … this feed man for the animals he lived in … he and his daughter lived in Chicago. And he was the one that more or less talked my mother into letting us go. Says “they can come over and see us.” And then when my daughter was born, he sent her a little dress. How about that?

JUDITH: Really?

LILLIAN: Wasn’t that nice?

JUDITH: Yes. So you kept up that friendship all your lives?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: That's marvelous. Uh, well, did your parents speak English with a heavy accent or did they learn English pretty well?

LILLIAN: They had a fairly heavy accent, yeah.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: And my mother loved babies. And anybody came in the store with a baby, everything stopped. She had to go see the baby, talk to it and pick it up, whatever. [chuckles]

JUDITH: [00:32:47] She was a real Italian mother.

LILLIAN: Right. [chuckles] Regardless of what the baby looked like. She always went after it.

JUDITH: Did they practice the Catholic faith, I assume?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah. The priest would shop in our store also.

JUDITH: Uh-hmm.

LILLIAN: Yeah. Father Ryan. I always remember. We went to Catholic schools.

JUDITH: Uh-huh. So you did go to Catholic schools?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Through high school?

LILLIAN: Through high school.

JUDITH: Ah-ha.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: They had enough of an established, uh, Catholic in Galveston then?

LILLIAN: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

JUDITH: OK. And, uh, but your parents insisted that you speak Italian at the main meal, but they also wanted you to learn English?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah.

JUDITH: OK.

LILLIAN: Well, I think we all spoke English at that time. But they wanted us definitely to speak Italian.

JUDITH: But they spoke English with the children throughout the day, except for the meal?

LILLIAN: Not with us. Always in Italian.

JUDITH: Oh, they did?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: That was what I was getting at.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: So they spoke Italian at home?

LILLIAN: Right. And I didn't go to a Catholic high school. I went to Ball High. But I went to a Catholic … St. Patrick's in grammar school. [Transcriber’s note: Ball High School was founded in 1884 in Galveston.]

JUDITH: OK. Through grammar school?

LILLIAN: Yeah. Grammar school.

JUDITH: And all of you all went to Catholic grammar schools?

LILLIAN: Mm-hmm.

JUDITH: Do you have any pictures of your parents or … well, that's all right. Don't get them out now.

LILLIAN: It would take a long time to find them. But I can find them and show them to you sometime. [Transcriber’s note: Judith and Lillian are apparently discussing family photographs that Lillian has in her home.]

JUDITH: Uh-huh. Um…

LILLIAN: My mother was beautiful.

JUDITH: Well, you're very beautiful. So both of your parents must have been handsome people.

LILLIAN: Yeah. He was handsome, too.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

LILLIAN: But my mother had the most gorgeous skin in the world.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

LILLIAN: Just snow white and soft, you know? [chuckles]

JUDITH: They sound as if they were happy…

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah

JUDITH: …in America and well adjusted? Not homesick.

LILLIAN: And, you know, we worked all the time. Even us kids were happy.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: You know, we were never bored like the kids are nowadays. Just never bored. Like I used to deliver groceries in a little … I had one of those little pull carts, you know. And, uh, within a block, they would let me, uh, deliver the groceries. And then…

JUDITH: …in a little red wagon?

LILLIAN: Right.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

LILLIAN: And when I first went to school, uh, I went to St. Patrick's. But before I went to St. Patrick's, the fact that they didn't want me to cross the street, and you can imagine what the traffic wasn't then. Nothing. But they didn't want me to cross the street. So I went to a Baptist school. ‘Cause our store was on this corner, and the church, the Baptist school and the church was on this corner, so I didn't have to cross. And the Baptist minister kept, yeah, hitting my left hand because I was left-handed. So now I write with my right hand. [chuckles]

JUDITH: No fooling.

LILLIAN: But I do everything with my left hand.

JUDITH: So you're ambidextrous?

LILIAN: Yeah. [chuckles]

JUDITH: How interesting. It was considered bad to be left-handed in those days.

LILLIAN: Yeah, I know.

JUDITH: Yeah, my family changed, everybody changed. Uh, so the way he did it was kind of hit your hand with a ruler?

LILLIAN: Yeah. Uh-huh … change … pencils. [chuckles]

JUDITH: Uh-huh. Isn’t that something.

LILLIAN: And as soon as I could go to St. Patrick's, then my sister would be responsible for taking me.

JUDITH: OK. So that was in your early grammar school?

LILLIAN: Yeah, real early.

JUDITH: First, second grade….

LILLIAN: Yeah, at least the first grade.

JUDITH: [00:36:12] But even at that age, when you were six years old or so, you were delivering groceries? Everybody had a job in the family?

LILLIAN: Yeah, that's right. And it would be on just on that block, see? Like the lady on the corner she wanted something delivered, would phone or something, and I'd take it in my wagon.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: And that gave you a sense of responsibility?

LILLIAN: [00:36:30] I guess so. And then another thing: we had sawdust on the floor in the store, and it was my job to pick up whatever people dropped. Little pieces of paper, whatever. We had a little rake. And also it was my job to watch the ladies that they didn't steal the fruit. Because in those days by the dozen everything was sold. A dozen oranges, a dozen this and a dozen that. And we had one lady, her name was Mrs. Nelson, I'll always remember her. And I would tell my mom in Italian that she had 13 apples or 30 whatever. [laughter]

JUDITH: What would your mother do?

LILLIAN: Well, they charged groceries in those days. They didn't pay cash like they do now. So what would my folks would do, they’d keep track of how many during the day, how many times she came in the store and what she stole. And then they’d charge her with, maybe she bought a lot of butter or something, they’d charge her with an extra pound of butter and got their money back. [laughter]

JUDITH: That’s wonderful. But they kept a reckoning?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: So it was an honest reckoning?

LILLIAN: That's right. Yeah, it was an honest … but, you know, if she didn't do that they wouldn't have done that.

JUDITH: Isn’t that something. But they never confronted them?

LILLIAN: No.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

LILLIAN: And I would always tell my mom, you know, this one has one apple, this one has, you know, 13 apples or whatever. One apple more is what I meant.

JUDITH: Yes, I understand.

LILLIAN: ‘Cause lemons were by the dozen...

JUDITH: Sure.

LILLIAN: …apples were by the dozen. Grapefruit, oranges, everything you can think of. Then they went to weight, which is the better. Because one's big and one’s small.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

LILLIAN: That's really the fair way to, to charge for that kind of fruit.

JUDITH: [00:38:08] Yes, it is. I suppose you sold butter out of crocks, too, by the pound and things like that?

LILLIAN: Now it was always in a package.

JUDITH: It was a package then?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Uh, then you had refrigeration of course?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm, yeah

JUDITH: Right. That's marvelous. What else do you remember from those days...?

LILLIAN: Well, you know, it's so funny about the grocery. We had a family, the name was [name is unclear]. I went to school with their daughter. And as a matter of fact, she was killed later. And, uh, she'd come in and say “Miss Mencacci, I'm having six people to dinner tonight, and I want some round steak. Would you please cut me some and so forth?” So I’d cut it for her. And I remember “this'll be 20 cents.” Can you imagine the prices? [laughter]

JUDITH: Wow.

LILLIAN: Twenty cents for six people. [laughter]

JUDITH: For the round steak?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Isn’t that wonderful. Do you remember some of the other prices?

LILLIAN: No, I don't. But that...

JUDITH: That sticks in your mind.

LILLIAN: Six people, you know…

JUDITH: Now it's four dollars a pound … that would have been...

LILLIAN: Twenty bucks to feed...

JUDITH: …three or four pounds.

LILLIAN: That's right. That's right. [laughter]

JUDITH: Well, you've seen a lot of changes in your [unintelligible word here].

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

JUDITH: You mentioned changes in San Francisco. What are some of the things that you've seen change?

LILLIAN: Well, I think, uh, the neighborhood has changed a lot. We're getting a lot of Asians in the neighborhood. And, uh, I think they're trying to go back to some of the ways things were. Don't you think?

JUDITH: I do. People are fed up with the...

LILLIAN: And all this downsizing and I don't know. And, you know, I'm all for education. But, boy, technology's knocking the hell of business.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

LILLIAN: You know, you can hire one person to do, just push buttons for six people.

JUDITH: Are your children both college-educated?

LILLIAN: [00:40:05] No. My daughter, she went to, what, about two or three years of college. But she was set on becoming a swimmer. She swam for Charlie Sava. I don’t know if you know who he is? [Transcriber’s note: Charlie Sava was a legendary swimming coach in San Francisco who coached several Olympic gold medalists. Sava died in 1983.]

JUDITH: No, tell us about that.

LILLIAN: She was All City Junior Champion, diving champion. And Wendy Nelder swam with him, too. [Transcriber’s note: Wendy Nelder served on San Francisco’s Board of Supervisors from 1980 until 1991.]

JUDITH: And how do you spell the coach's name?

LILLIAN: Saba? S-A-B-A. Charlie Saba.

JUDITH: Uh-huh. He was a famous swimmer?

LILLIAN: It was right down here.

JUDITH: Oh, at the North Beach pool? [Transcriber’s note: Located at 661 Lombard Street, North Beach Swimming Pool was constructed in 1910. The pool is situated next to Joe DiMaggio Playground.]

LILLIAN: That's right. I used to come over here all the time.

JUDITH: I’ll be darned.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Ah-ha.

LILLIAN: And then she was on the Surf Fins team. And they went to … where’d they go? Minnesota, I think. ‘Cause I went down to the airport to see the girls off. And, uh, they gave an exhibition. In other words, they were doing ballet in the water is what it amounts to.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

LILLIAN: And that was a nice affair. And she was down there a lot of times. And someone, I can't think of his name, he came in one time from Hollywood to watch the girls. Ann Curtis, you know, she was champion of the Olympics. [Transcriber’s note: Born in San Francisco in 1926, Ann Curtis began trained under Charlie Sava as a member of the San Francisco Crystal Plunge swimming club. Curtis competed at the 1948 Summer Olympics in London, winning a medal in every freestyle swimming race in which women were allowed to enter at the time. Curtis was inducted into the International Swimming Hall of Fame and the Bay Area Sports Hall of Fame, and she died in 2012 at her home in San Rafael.]

JUDITH: Oh, really?

LILLIAN: She was on the team. Yeah.

JUDITH: I’ll be darned.

LILLIAN: As a matter of fact, I have a, uh, a video that I bought … KQED was, uh, showing it to raise money. And they showed how it used to be, and they showed the Fox Theater and everything. And my daughter's in it. She's diving. And Ann Curtis is in that one.

JUDITH: And what was the name of the team? Surf…?

LILLIAN: The ballet team was the Surf Fins.

JUDITH: Surf Fins?

LILLIAN: But they were coached by a lady doctor. But Charlie Saba coached the swimmers.

JUDITH: OK.

LILLIAN: And my daughter was an excellent swimmer. I mean, she, you know, she didn't ripple the water, it was so smooth. She's just a natural swimmer.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: And Wendy Nelder was there. And Sugar Shannon, I don't know. And Doctor, he’s a Chinese, Dr. Lee. He was a famous diver. He was always with the girls. [Transcriber’s note: Transcriber was unable to find information about a diver named Lee who trained with Charlie Sava.]

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Wendy Nelder was also on the team? A former supervisor, San Francisco supervisor, and daughter of, uh, a police chief…

LILLIAN: Of Al, yeah.

JUDITH: …police chief Alan… [Transcriber’s note: Wendy Nelder’s father, Alfred Nelder, served as San Francisco Police Chief in 1970-71. He later served two terms on San Francisco’s Board of Supervisors, and also served on the Police Commission.]

LILLIAN: I don't think she was with the Surf Fins, but she was on the swim team.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm. I didn't realize she was a swimmer. So your daughter didn't go to college? She was…

LILLIAN: Well, two years.

JUDITH: She must be interested in the forthcoming Olympics?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah. We've gone to, uh, we were in Korea. We were on the hospitality committee there. And we were down in Los Angeles.

JUDITH: Oh, really? So she’s…? … [Transcriber’s note: Lillian apparently asks Judith whether the room temperature is comfortable here] Yes, that's all right. No, never mind.

LILLIAN: She opened this window.

JUDITH: [00:42:48] She, uh, is a … still active then in her sporting interest?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah, she loves it. Yeah.

JUDITH: Does she coach or…?

LILLIAN: Oh, no. She's working up here at Eureka Bank. Right up here.

JUDITH: Oh, in the neighborhood?

LILLIAN: Yeah. Uh-huh.

JUDITH: And what does your son do?

LILLIAN: He's, uh, he's a contractor. Building contractor.

JUDITH: So they left the nest and…?

LILLIAN: And the boys, uh, my grandson graduated Chico, and now he’s going to go to State. And he's also working with his father. Like, you know, if he has a day off or weekends or whatever.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm. The diver was a Charlie Lee? Or a somebody Lee?

LILLIAN: Dr. Lee.

JUDITH: Oh, OK. A Chinese diver?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Very good. And that all took place at the North Beach Pool?

LILLIAN: Yeah, right up here.

JUDITH: At the corner of…

LILLIAN: [00:43:39] At Lana Fleishhackers. [Transcriber’s note: Per Wikipedia, Fleishhacker Pool was a public saltwater swimming pool complex, located near the San Francisco Zoo. Upon its completion in 1925, it was one of the largest outdoor swimming pools in the world. It remained open for more than four decades until its closure in 1971 and was eventually demolished in 2000.]

JUDITH: Oh, and at Fleishhacker…?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah.

JUDITH: It's a shame that that's gone, closed down.

LILLIAN: A lot of Fleishhackers.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm. That was a beautiful pool.

LILLIAN: Oh, yes.

JUDITH: Outdoor pool, out by the coast. But this pool then has been here since the ‘30s?

LILLIAN: Oh, at least.

JUDITH: Because I'm told that the North Beach playground is the playground where the famous ballplayer, um...

LILLIAN: Joe DiMaggio?

JUDITH: Joe DiMaggio started with his brother. Is that your understanding?

LILLIAN: That's what I heard, too.

JUDITH: [00:44:13] OK. Did your husband ever umpire teams that DiMaggio was on?

LILLIAN: No, his were … the ones he umpired were semi-pro, not professional. Yeah.

JUDITH: OK.

LILLIAN: They were like, uh, say Bank of America had a ball team.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: And they were playing like the bank of somebody else. Things like that.

JUDITH: I see. OK. Uh, do you think that the Italian-American community has, uh, regained or has always had its pride? Uh, because I know there were times when they felt that they were discriminated against. Did you ever have the experiences like that or…?

LILLIAN: We had discrimination in Galveston.

JUDITH: Ah-ha. And people would be do the dastardly things that people do?

LILLIAN: Yeah, uh-huh.

JUDITH: But somehow your parents were able to talk you into not being affected by that?

LILLIAN: Yeah. And, uh, again, being in the grocery store, we didn't have a lot of those worries, you know. But, uh, I do know that, uh, like the kids at school, you know, “Oh, you’re Italian?” You know. “I am. I'm glad I am.”

JUDITH: You were proud of it and always were?

LILLIAN: Yeah. And you know, another thing that happened in Galveston, this was another store that my dad had before he got this one by Hollywood.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

LILLIAN: Uh, it was a cemetery across the street, and this couple in their Rolls-Royce with their chauffeur, always drove up once a week to go to their daughter's grave. And, uh, we kids knew that when they came. ‘Cause the first time we all went around, say “hello, how are you?” So forth. And they talked to us. They gave us each a dime. So then we knew every day … whatever day they came. So we’d all remember that time, and we were out there. [laughter]

JUDITH: Did you ever get any more dimes?

LILLIAN: Oh, sure. That's why I went every week. [laughter]

JUDITH: Did they give every one of you a dime?

LILLIAN: Everybody. There was about five of us, they’d give us all a dime. [chuckles]

JUDITH: That was quite a lot in the Depression.

LILLIAN: That's right. And that was really nice of them.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

LILLIAN: But I guess they were just an unhappy couple who lost their daughter. And they must have had bales of money if they had a chauffeur, you know.

JUDITH: Oh, yeah. Right.

LILLIAN: In uniform and so forth.

JUDITH: [00:46:31] Oh, they came in a chauffeured car?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah, sure.

JUDITH: Uh-huh. So that would have been in the early ‘30s?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: I'll be darned.

LILLIAN: [chuckles]

JUDITH: That is a story. Were they Italian? Was this a Catholic cemetery?

LILLIAN: No.

JUDITH: Oh, it was just a cemetery? Well, uh, did you know any people who were interned during World War Two? Any Italians. Your family or your … husband?

LILLIAN: No.

JUDITH: OK. Because that was an interesting time...

LILLIAN: Yeah. But I didn’t know…

JUDITH: OK. Did you know people in the Giannini family or any of those people who were starting out here? [Transcriber’s note: Judith is referring here to the family of Amadeo Pietro Giannini, also known as A. P. Giannini, a banker who founded Bank of Italy in San Francisco’s Jackson Square neighborhood in 1904. Bank of Italy later became Bank of America.]

LILLIAN: The one from Bank of America? No, I don’t, un-huh.

JUDITH: He started out…

LILLIAN: I know that he started out, but I don't remember meeting any of them.

JUDITH: OK.

LILLIAN: And the fella that you just interviewed…

JUDITH: Peter Macchiarini?

LILLIAN: That's the one. The jeweler. [Transcriber’s note: Peter Macchiarini is the subject of two THD oral histories, available at https://www.thd.org/oral-history]

JUDITH: Yes, uh-huh, on Grant. He's been there for 40 years.

LILLIAN: And his wife is still there I assume…?

JUDITH: His wife is, yes, but she just had a stroke.

LILLIAN: Did she? Oh, my gosh.

JUDITH: But she's getting better.

LILLIAN: Oh.

JUDITH: He's going to tell me more about the Italian Athletic Club. Were you all members of that or…? [Transcriber’s note: Founded in 1917, the San Francisco Italian Athletic Club is a men’s social and athletic club located at 1630 Stockton Street in North Beach.]

LILLIAN: No, but I've been there to a lot of affairs.

JUDITH: Yes, it's still a very active...

LILLIAN: I go to the three I's luncheons.

JUDITH: What's that?

LILLIAN: Irish, Italian and Israeli.

JUDITH: Oh, that’s right. That's a big active group here in the city.

LILLIAN: Around, uh, for Columbus Day they have, and for St. Patrick's Day.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: It's a fun thing.

JUDITH: I've heard that. And is it usually held at the Italian [Athletic Club]?

LILLIAN: As a rule it is.

JUDITH: Uh-huh. They have one at St Patrick's Day, and when is the other?

LILLIAN: Columbus Day. Well, not that particular date. But I mean, for that reason. That week.

JUDITH: OK. Oh, that's nice. Do they … does it also benefit anything or…

LILLIAN: I don't know. I don’t think it does.

JUDITH: …just a social gathering?

LILLIAN: It’s just a social gathering. And it's kind of fun. The fellow from, uh, the Jewish fella, he … gets on the Irish accent. It's a riot. [laughter]

JUDITH: Uh-huh. I'll bet.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: I'd love to attend one of those some time. How does one qualify? … not at all. How does one qualify to do that? You just have to be Italian, Irish or Israeli?

LILLIAN: Yeah. Well, no. They send you … if you go, you know, they'll send you in the mail the next time they have it.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: And, uh, it's … 25, 30 bucks, you know. And they provide the wine and so forth.

JUDITH: Oh, that's marvelous. Well, I have heard of other people who attended it.

LILLIAN: Yeah. It is … it's a nice affair.

JUDITH: Uh-huh. Um, well, let me see if I have anything else here that I don't, uh, didn't get from you before. I have your full name and date of birth. And you were born in Galveston.

LILLIAN: Mm-hmm.

JUDITH: And your father's full name. And he … he was a grocery store owner?

LILLIAN: Yes.

JUDITH: And he was born in Lucca, Italy?

LILLIAN: Lucca, Italy. So was my mom.

JUDITH: And your mother also was born in Lucca. And I got her name. And your husband's name I have. And he was a sales representative and contractor...?

LILLIAN: Sales representative for railroad supplies.

JUDITH: Right. OK. And you have two children?

LILLIAN: Mm-hmm.

JUDITH: And you grew up in Galveston and moved here in 1934?

LILLIAN: And I have two grandsons.

JUDITH: Right. Uh, and your husband, you think … was your husband born in Galveston, too?

LILLIAN: No, no. He was born in, uh, he was born in Michigan.

JUDITH: Oh, right. That's right. But his family, you think, were from Santa Maria?

LILLIAN: Yes. Mm-hmm.

JUDITH: Alright. And, uh, you did not complete high school, but almost…

LILLIAN: No.

JUDITH: You were just short of high school. Do you have any special things that you did in hobbies and, uh, skills that you refined over the years? Are you active in any organizations or, well, interests…?

LILLIAN: Just Telegraph Hill Dwellers. But as I say, you know, my husband was sick and I just didn't have that kind of time.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

LILLIAN: ‘Cause I was running his office and…

JUDITH: [00:50:41] But you've been active in the Dwellers then for some years?

LILLIAN: Yeah. But you know, I'm not that … I don't do that much work there.

JUDITH: No, but I mean...

LILLIAN: I attended a meeting there Tuesday night, as a matter of fact.

JUDITH: Uh-huh. Do you participate in community activities on their behalf? Uh, go down to City Hall if they need people and so on?

LILLIAN: Well, they haven't asked me as yet. But I've been asked to work in the fair. This is the first year that they've asked me. So this is the one on June … yeah, what, June 11th or whatever…

JUDITH: Oh, it’s going forward as planned then, the North Beach Fair? [Transcriber’s note: Judith is referring here to the North Beach Festival, which began in 1954 as the Upper Grant Avenue Street Fair. It appears that Lillian was a volunteer worker at the North Beach Festival in 1996, as part of her activity with Telegraph Hill Dwellers.]

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Now, you know Mr. Macchiarini founded that fair?

LILLIAN: Oh, did he?

JUDITH: Many, many years ago. He was one of the first people to get it started. So that should be good. That's been going on consistently for many years now I know.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: OK. Uh, is there anything that I've missed that you wanted to raise, that we didn't talk about?

LILLIAN: I've been trying to think of things, you know.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm.

[Transcriber’s note: there is a break in the audio recording here]

JUDITH: [00:51:38] But your parents then stayed in Galveston, for the rest of their lives and…

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah.

JUDITH: And they're buried there?

LILLIAN: Yeah. They, uh, they came out here, you know, maybe … I would say they came out twice. Each one came out twice.

JUDITH: Uh-huh. Uh, alone or together? They didn't travel together?

LILLIAN: No. They, uh, they flew out alone, because one would have to stay with the store, you know.

JUDITH: Ah-ha. That's interesting. Did they have the store operating up until the day, really, that they…?

LILLIAN: No, they … I would say about 10 years before they passed away they gave it up. But in the meantime, when my kids were born they'd come here to see them and so forth. And also before my husband became a commissioned, uh, rep, he worked for the Southern Pacific. And we had passes. So I could go down there with passes.

JUDITH: Oh. Right.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Well, those train trips must have been...

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah. Take the kids.

JUDITH: Right. Uh, do you recall them with pleasure or were they uncomfortable?

LILLIAN: Oh, no, it was fine. And then also, I sent my daughter down with her godmother. Uh, her name was Helen Vickie, and, uh, she was three years old. So I sent her down to my mom's. You know, my mom wanted to see her without me. And it worked out real well. [chuckles] You know, she was happy going and so forth, to see grandma and so forth. [Transcriber’s note: correct spelling of Helen Vickie is unknown]

JUDITH: That's wonderful. Did they put a tag around her neck and…

LILLIAN: [laughter]

JUDITH: …tell her to be delivered. Well, she was with an adult.

LILLIAN: Yeah, she was with her godmother. And, uh, my folks had a horse. And they had the grocery store here, and then the barn was over here. So my mother got up early in the morning to open the store. My father would stay in bed. And then when he got up that afternoon, my mom would take her nap. But what I'm trying to tell you is that early in the morning, my daughter woke up … like six with my mom. And I'm in bed. ‘Cause I used to go see all my school buddies, you know. And my mom would take care of Georgia. And my mom couldn't find Georgia in the kitchen. So she looks out the door and she's under the horse. She's “nice, horsey. Nice horsey.” [laughter]

JUDITH: She was about four or five years old?

LILLIAN: About three. [chuckles]

JUDITH: Oh, gosh. Under the horse's belly.

LILLIAN: Yeah. All he’d have to do is move one leg and that would have been it.

JUDITH: What did they do with the horse? Did they use it for delivery or riding?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah. A wagon, with the Queen Grocery sign on it. Yeah.

JUDITH: Oh, so it was a horse drawn wagon?

LILLIAN: [00:54:13] Yeah. And then my father and I, when we came back from Italy, we brought a buggy that Mrs. Moody bought. It had fenders of walnut wood. Gorgeous.

JUDITH: Oh, how wonderful.

LILLIAN: And it's in the Smithsonian Institute now.

JUDITH: No fooling.

LILLIAN: And Mrs. Moody, who was the richest people in Texas at that time, they were the bankers and the cotton people, she came in our kitchen. She had on all her horse riding clothes on, her jodhpurs and everything, and she bought the buggy for my dad. And then she was someplace in a … with a chauffeur and, uh, had an accident and she was killed.

JUDITH: In a car?

LILLIAN: Mm-hmm.

JUDITH: She bought the buggy because she liked it or because your dad was selling it?

LILLIAN: No, no. She was a horsewoman. I mean, she loved horses and she loved that, something like that from Italy. And another thing, too…

JUDITH: Wow.

LILLIAN: …that I got to tell you about the Moodys. See, when I came along, my folks were having a little bit of money, so they gave me piano lessons and dancing. And the Moody girls were also taking dancing lessons from the same teacher. So they had to pass my father's store to get to the studio, and on the way back to get their home. So they would pick me up at the grocery store. So here I am riding with these little millionaires. [laughter] [Transcriber’s note: the Moody family began building a fortune in the Galveston area in the 1850s through cotton trading, and later credit lending, banking and the development of a national insurance company.]

JUDITH: Wonderful.

LILLIAN: …in a chauffeur-driven car taken to my dancing lesson. [chuckles]

JUDITH: That's fun. Well, now, tell me. Describe that buggy again. What kind of buggy, do you know?

LILLIAN: It was just a one-seater. And, uh…

JUDITH: Like a trap?

LILLIAN: I guess so. Well, you know, it's like a show-off type of a thing. It had fenders on it, walnut wood fenders over the wheels.

JUDITH: Wow. Walnut? Were they inlaid?

LILLIAN: No, it was just…

JUDITH: Decorated were the…?

LILLIAN: No, no. It was just a piece of wood that just folded over, just like a fender. Only it was wood.

JUDITH: OK, so it was an open buggy?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah, it was open. Yeah.

JUDITH: No hood and no side doors and windows?

LILLIAN: No. Oh, no.

JUDITH: It was like a little trap, OK.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: But it was a beautiful one. And this woman used it in her shows, Mrs. Moody?

LILLIAN: I guess she did, yeah.

JUDITH: [00:56:31] And you say it's now in the Smithsonian?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: When would that have been that he brought that buggy? On your second or first trip?

LILLIAN: Uh, I'm going to say 1929, something like that.

JUDITH: Wow.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: And it came from northern Italy? Was there an area famous for building buggies?

LILLIAN: Gosh, I don't remember. All I remember is that he had got that, and he had some shoes made over there. [chuckles]

JUDITH: [00:56:54] Ah-ha. And did the buggy come by ship to Galveston?

LILLIAN: Yeah. Uh-hmm. I remember going down to get it.

JUDITH: Right. And seeing it come off the ship?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: How wonderful.

LILLIAN: Yeah. [chuckles]

JUDITH: ‘Cause Galveston is a big seaport.

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah.

JUDITH: But your store was not on the harbor? It was inland somewhere, I gather?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: OK.

LILLIAN: See he had the wagon for the grocery deliveries and so forth. And to buy … in those days you had to go buy your stuff for the stores. You know, they didn't deliver like they do nowadays. They did, but I mean nothing like this.

JUDITH: So you had to pick up supplies and...?

LILLIAN: Supplies, yeah. He had to pick up supplies. And he had to deliver groceries and also to pick up supplies.

JUDITH: OK.

LILLIAN: And it was painted orange, you know, and had the name Queen Grocery on it.

JUDITH: Uh-huh. So it was a big wagon, open wagon with sides?

LILLIAN: Well, it was wasn’t too big … yeah, yeah.

JUDITH: Do you remember what kind of horse it was? Like a [unintelligible word here]?

LILLIAN: I don’t know. They were all brown. Beautiful.

JUDITH: Uh-huh. And it was pretty important, uh, item having a good, strong horse.

LILLIAN: Yeah, another thing, too. When it's hot down there, you get mosquitoes and flies, and they drive you crazy. And when the horse was out to pasture, I guess the mosquitoes or whatever. And, you know, their hooves, they’re doing their hooves all ... and the hoof got caught in that ring. And my father didn't know it. So when he went to get the horse that night, to bring him to the barn for the night, the horse was on the ground. And all his interiors were out of the other end. So my father had to shoot him.

JUDITH: Oh, god.

LILLIAN: Terrible thing. Yeah. And he just…

JUDITH: He choked or something.

LILLIAN: Well, he … I guess he just struggled so much to get that hoof loose, you know?

JUDITH: Oh, that's a sad story. Did he get another horse?

LILLIAN: Yeah, he had to. ‘Cause…

JUDITH: So how long … up until what time did he have that wagon?

LILLIAN: Hmmm. I’m going to say to about ‘43.

JUDITH: ‘Til after … during the war?

LILLIAN: Yeah. ‘Cause he didn't have a car...

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: …and that was his way of transportation.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Wow. That's a wonderful image.

LILLIAN: ‘Cause both of the kids were born, you know. And they were already three and four, and they were already riding in the wagon with my dad. And that was, you know, a big deal for them.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: So, yeah, it was in the ‘40s.

JUDITH: [00:59:31] What a beautiful, picturesque sight that would have been then. Even then.

LILLIAN: Right.

JUDITH: So was your family's store fairly famous and well known?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah.

JUDITH: And was it kind of what we’d now call an old-fashioned store, with bins of things like polenta and beans and…?

LILLIAN: Yeah. And also we had the counter and all the goods, the canned goods was in back. And we had that little clamp thing, you know. They wanted a can of beans and it’s up there you get it…

JUDITH: Oh, right.

LILLIAN: It isn't like you go help yourself now. Nothing like that.

JUDITH: It's a long pole with a clamp? Pull the cans down.

LILLIAN: Yeah. And all the canned stuff was all in the back of us. The width of the store.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: Then on the other side was the vegetables. And then in the center we had a Coca-Cola thing. Full of Coca-Cola ‘cause it's so hot. And on this side, we had the tobacco case. Oh, and that's another thing. Our phone would ring. And especially in the evening, we'd say “Queen Grocery.” And they’d say “uh, do you have Prince Albert in the can?” “Yes, we do.” “Well, let him out!” [laughter]

JUDITH: [laughter] Meaning the tobacco?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: I love it. Pranksters.

LILLIAN: Yeah, right.

JUDITH: And you had a lot of those calls?

LILLIAN: Oh, lots, yeah. [laughter]

JUDITH: Everyone thought it was the first and funniest time. “Well, let him out!” Oh, that's great. Uh, so what happened to the store? Is it gone now?

LILLIAN: Yeah, it's … I think it's a repair shop of some kind.

JUDITH: Oh, so the building's still there?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah. The building was new when we went in.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: This was on 35th and S.

JUDITH: In Galveston?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah.

JUDITH: And it's still there?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Did your father build it or he bought the…?

LILLIAN: [01:01:16] He bought it as it was being built. He bought it. Yeah.

JUDITH: OK.

LILLIAN: And, you know, my mother was an opera … boy, she was really hooked on opera. And, uh, [unintelligible Italian name here] would appear in Houston. And that's the only time my mother would go anyplace. She'd take the Interurban train and go to Houston. And hear Gallicucci. [Transcriber’s note: Lillian may be referring here to Amelita Galli-Curci (1882 –1963), an Italian soprano who was one of the most popular operatic singers of the 20th century.]

JUDITH: Spell that name. Was that a man or a woman?

LILLIAN: It's a woman … And I don't know. Galla-coochie. G-A-L-L-I-C-U-…

JUDITH: C-C-I, maybe?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: It was a famous woman I guess?

LILLIAN: Extremely famous.

JUDITH: Uh-huh. And your mother loved opera?

LILLIAN: Mm-hmm.

JUDITH: Did she sing?

LILLIAN: She sang when she was doing dishes all the time.

JUDITH: Oh, that's wonderful.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: And she took you to Houston to see…?

LILLIAN: No, she didn't take us. She'd go, herself.

JUDITH: Alone?

LILLIAN: Yeah. She'd take the Interurban train and go see Gallicucci. That was her only...

JUDITH: Luxury.

LILLIAN: Yeah, luxury in life. Loved it.

JUDITH: Oh, that's wonderful.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: And she sang around the house?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah, yeah. Singing, washing dishes. You know, we didn’t have dishwashers in those days. [chuckles]

JUDITH: Did you take up an interest in that yourself or…?

LILLIAN: No, but I like music, you know. I love music.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: And I took piano lessons and so forth. And dancing.

JUDITH: That’s wonderful.

LILLIAN: [01:02:41] And to do our laundry, she had a Black lady come in. And the Black lady did the scrubbing on the board. And my sister … this was on Mondays. And she and I would get up at 6 o’clock. My sister...

[Transcriber’s note: second audiotape begins here]

LILLIAN: On the lines.

JUDITH: [00:01:01] So you. You and your sister rinsed…

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: …early on Monday mornings?

LILLIAN: Right.

JUDITH: And then this Black lady did the scrubbing on the board?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: And she did the bluing? [Transcriber’s note: Bluing products improve the brightness of white fabrics by adding a blue pigment that counteracts the natural yellowing that occurs during laundering.]

LILLIAN: My mom did the bluing.

JUDITH: Oh, your mother did the bluing?

LILLIAN: And then we’d all hang them up on the lines.

LILLIAN: Uh-huh.

JUDITH: All on Monday?

LILLIAN: Every Monday.

JUDITH: Monday wash day.

LILLIAN: Yeah, Monday was wash day. And this was before school, you know. It was during vacation, too. But I mean we had to get up before school and do that.

JUDITH: Right.

LILLIAN: So that's why, I guess we weren't bored. [laughter]

JUDITH: I can see that. You were busy as cranberry merchants, as we used to say in Kansas. Um, and your mother used this bluing?

LILLIAN: And I don't know what it's … I remember the water was blue, and we had a fire under the tub.

JUDITH: Was it outdoors?

LILLIAN: Yeah. Outdoors in the backyard.

JUDITH: Wow.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: What a job.

LILLIAN: What a job. [laughter]

JUDITH: The good old days.

LILLIAN: That’s right. [laughter]

JUDITH: Uh-huh. But you don't seem to be, remember complaining about it?

LILLIAN: Oh, no.

JUDITH: It’s just part of the daily…?

LILLIAN: Yes, it's part of life.

JUDITH: Right.

LILLIAN: Who ever heard of a washing machine in those days?

JUDITH: No. Did you have hot and cold running water in your plumbing and everything?

LILLIAN: I think we did. Yeah.

JUDITH: Uh, yeah, I remember we had a big tub. And it was out in the back part of the yard, and that's where washing was. And then you had a ringer. We had a ringer on the tub…

LILLIAN: I see.

JUDITH: …that you ran the stuff through to dry to squeeze out the water. You remember that?

LILLIAN: Yeah, I remember that. Yeah.

JUDITH: [00:01:36] OK. Uh, some more of the Italian things that your mother loved. And your father. Now, your father … your husband followed sports. But did your father have interests of his own that he followed?

LILLIAN: I'm trying to think. He did have an interest in … what was it?

JUDITH: Sports or…?

LILLIAN: One of the things he loved was food. And he loved good food.

JUDITH: Uh-huh. Was he a cook?

LILLIAN: No. Un-huh.

JUDITH: Your mother did all the cooking?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Was she a good cook?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah. Uh-huh.

JUDITH: Uh, did she, I assume, cooked foods that she had known in northern Italy, in that style?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah. Oh, sure.

JUDITH: Do you remember certain things that she…?

LILLIAN: Baccala with polenta was great.

JUDITH: Baccala?

LILLIAN: Baccala was codfish, dried codfish. And they soak it.

JUDITH: Right.

LILLIAN: And then they make a tomato gravy, sort of like a pasta, you know, a gravy that you put on pasta. But they put the fish in instead of meat. And then you put that over your polenta and it's delicious.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: It's really good.

JUDITH: Lots of polenta and sauces. And rabbit…?

LILLIAN: And we had a lot of chicken, a lot of turkey. Because we raised them in the backyard.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: And, uh, salads. See, we always had, like, a bollito. You know what a bollito is?

JUDITH: Spell that.

LILLIAN: Oh, gosh. Bollito. [Transcriber’s note: Bollito misto is an Italian dish of mixed meats (such as lamb, veal, beef and sausage) boiled with vegetables.]

JUDITH: B-O-L-I-T-H-O?

LILLIAN: I got an Italian dictionary. I could...

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: Uh, you have your soup first, which is a light broth. And then the beef that makes your soup, you slice that, and that's called bollito. And she’d serve it with a light salad with a little bit of oil and vinegar. Then you get your entree, the big entree. That's the way our dinner was all the time. And incidentally, this up here, at … La Felce they're serving bollito. [Transcriber’s note: Now closed, La Felce was an Italian restaurant located at 1570 Stockton Street in North Beach.]

JUDITH: Oh, that's wonderful. The restaurant.

LILLIAN: Uh-huh.

JUDITH: I'll have to look at that.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: And … but that was the beef, the boiled beef from which you got your broth?

LILLIAN: That's right. Uh-huh.

JUDITH: So you had some slices of that and then a salad with just...

LILLIAN: That's right.

JUDITH: …vinegar and oil?

LILLIAN: [00:03:50] And then you’d get your … like she'd have eggplant and fried in egg batter. Or things like that. Or zucchinis and egg batter. And maybe a small piece of chicken and a little bit of pasta. And that would be our dinner. And then we'd have fruit for, uh, dessert.

JUDITH: Ah-ha.

LILLIAN: We’re all pretty healthy people, too.

JUDITH: Wow. Did you raise fruit and vegetables?

LILLIAN: No.

JUDITH: OK.

LILLIAN: We didn't have the space nor the time.

JUDITH: But this main meal was, would it be at noon even when you were at school?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: You came home for lunch?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: For your main meal?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: OK. And so in the evening you had a light supper with cheese and bread?

LILLIAN: Yeah, whatever. Yeah.

JUDITH: Did your mother bake bread also?

LILLIAN: No.

JUDITH: OK, you bought your bread.

LILLIAN: See she was in the grocery store. And then she made our clothes. My sister’s and my clothes. I mean, she was busy.

JUDITH: Gosh. Did she ever come … do you remember her ever complaining about not getting things that she had at home in Italy?

LILLIAN: No.

JUDITH: …missing? … OK. Alright. She sounds like a … they sound as if they were happy people your parents?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah. They were happy. Yeah.

JUDITH: And not complaining about their being immigrants?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: They were happy to be in America?

LILLIAN: Right.

JUDITH: Did they send money back home to relatives?

LILLIAN: Not to my knowledge.

JUDITH: OK.

LILLIAN: I don't think so. With six kids, you got money to send home? [chuckles]

JUDITH: Right. But did they like America? Were they proud of being Americans?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah. Uh-hmm.

JUDITH: Did they become citizens and vote?

LILLIAN: Yes. And also, I remember my mom, she used to say, my dad says, “well, shall we go vote?” You know. You say “OK.” [chuckles] So they’d go vote.

JUDITH: Uh-huh. So … but they recognized that was a privilege to be exercised?

LILLIAN: Yeah, right. Uh-huh.

JUDITH: Well, you've had some marvelous … I hope you're passing on. Do you cook bollito for your grandchildren?

LILLIAN: Yeah, uh-huh. I like it.

JUDITH: So you're passing on some of these traditions?

LILLIAN: And, uh, my daughter-in-law makes terrific polenta. [chuckles] Oh, yeah.

JUDITH: Good. Is she American or Italian?

LILLIAN: She's Irish-German, I think.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: So you've taught her well? Italian cooking?

LILLIAN: Yeah. Well, she loves to cook anyway. And she talks to a lot of Italian people over on her side. So she has a real interesting job. She works at a family clinic over in San Rafael. And if she don't write a book … [chuckles] You can’t believe the problems.

JUDITH: Mm-hmm. Yes, it is. Well, they're all contributing to society.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Well, you've got some wonderful heritage.

LILLIAN: [00:06:31] Yeah, I've had a wonderful childhood. You know, when I hear other people … gee, you haven’t even lived. [chuckles]

JUDITH: I know. You know how blessed you are.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Right. Well, that's great. You have a wonderful place here. How long have you lived here on Edith Alley? [Transcriber’s note: Per Judith Robinson, Edith Street or “Alley” (formerly Church Place) is a short block running west off Grant Avenue between Greenwich and Lombard Streets on Telegraph Hill. It had experienced fires and construction collapses in the 1890s and residents held a neighborhood party for many years. Some notable people lived there, including author Curt Gentry. See David F. Myrick, San Francisco’s Telegraph Hill (Berkeley, CA.:  Howell-North Books, 1972), 125, 128-9.]

LILLIAN: Since ’64.

JUDITH: Oh, that's when you and your husband moved to North Beach, into this location?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: OK, so you participated in the Edith Alley…

LILLIAN: The party...

JUDITH: …for years. the Edith Alley Party?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Tell us, remind us something about that. Does it still go on?

LILLIAN: [00:07:03] It may go on. I doubt it very much. But, uh, usually the … other people have all moved away, you know. But, uh, it wasn't … Italian. It was just…

JUDITH: Neighborhood. But that’s what I mean…

LILLIAN: Yeah. And they had the food out. Everybody contributed something, you know?

JUDITH: Uh-huh. It was like a block party?

LILLIAN: Yeah. Yeah.

JUDITH: And what time of year was it usually held?

LILLIAN: Always in the summertime, it seems to me. I'm going to guess June.

JUDITH: [00:07:31] I think it was. But, uh, there were some very interesting people who lived here on Edith Alley. Do you remember some of your neighbors? Now I know right at the end Curt Gentry lives at the end… [Transcriber’s note: Curtis Marsena "Curt" Gentry (1931 – 2014) was an American writer best known for co-authoring, with Vincent Bugliosi, the 1974 book Helter Skelter, which detailed the Charles Manson murders. Gentry lived in San Francisco.]

LILLIAN: He’s still there.

JUDITH: …the author Curt Gentry lives here. And, uh, were there some other notable people?

LILLIAN: Uh, before this place was remodeled, and before we moved here, before ’64 … it's a big guy in the movies … anyway … whoever lived here, he would come over and lie on his back. And these people had like a three-year-old child… [Transcriber’s note: the name of the actor to which Lillian is referring is unknown.]

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: …and he would recite poetry to them and so forth. And someone told my husband about that. Someone that knew these people.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: But that's the only one that I know of. And of course, we had that Carol Hewitt. She was a schoolteacher I think… [Transcriber’s note: Correct spelling of Carol Hewitt is unknown.]

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: And she was the ex-wife of a judge. And do you know of anybody else that, uh…?

JUDITH: Well, I used to know some people who lived across the street. Michel Willey lived over there when we rented a place right across the street there. [Transcriber’s note: Michel F. Willey (1935-2008) was a long-time resident of Edith Street, an active member of the Telegraph Hill community. He was an attorney and U. S. Navy officer who, with partners, bought and restored historic National Hotel in Jamestown, California. See Willey obituary, San Francisco Chronicle, February 18, 2008.]

LILLIAN: Uh-huh.

JUDITH: I knew people who lived on here. And I know people who live at the entrance off Grant.

LILLIAN: Uh-huh.

JUDITH: In that old house that's right there...

LILLIAN: Yeah

JUDITH: …the number 12…

LILLIAN: The Italian people, isn't it?

JUDITH: Yeah. Who own that. The corner house and the one behind it that’s set back.

LILLIAN: Uh-huh, yeah.

JUDITH: With the small little rooms.

LILLIAN: Uh-huh.

JUDITH: Very, very old building…

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: …very pretty old building.

LILLIAN: Uh-huh.

JUDITH: Was it this fellow, the movie mogul who owns the triangular flatiron building down here? What's his name? Uh, Coppola. Francis Ford Coppola. Was that the man who recited poetry? [Transcriber’s note: Celebrated filmmaker Francis Ford Coppola has a longtime association with North Beach. The neighborhood is home to his Cafe Zoetrope, located in the historic Sentinel Building.]

LILLIAN: No. Un-huh. This is before his generation.

JUDITH: Oh, an older man?

LILLIAN: Yeah, and he's very … I think he's dead. But he was very famous in his day.

JUDITH: Was he an actor?

LILLIAN: Yeah, he was an actor.

JUDITH: Oh, I see. Was he Italian?

LILLIAN: No.

JUDITH: Oh, I see. OK.

LILLIAN: And also he had … his wife was a famous actress, too. But I can't think of his name. But I do know that he used to recite poetry to this, uh, child. Because it was told to my husband. And the guy that told him knew the parents of this child.

JUDITH: I’ll be darned.

LILLIAN: That was before we moved here.

JUDITH: Well, that's very sort of in keeping with the bohemian quality of the neighborhood that…

LILLIAN: I used to have Carol Doda as a tenant. [Transcriber’s note: Per Wikipedia, Carol Doda (1937 – 2015) was a topless dancer who was active from the 1960s through the 1980s. She was the first public topless dancer in the United States. In 1964, Doda made international news, first by dancing topless at the Condor Club on Broadway, then by enhancing her bust from size 34 to 44 through silicone injections.]

JUDITH: Oh, you did?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Oh, that's marvelous. I knew she lived in North Beach, right? Did she…?

LILLIAN: I used to own the building over there, and she lived over there.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: And we're still friends. I see her occasionally.

JUDITH: Right. I'm told she's a nice woman and she's a good businesswoman.

LILLIAN: Uh-huh, yeah.

JUDITH: Well, it's a lovely neighborhood. It is very unique.

LILLIAN: Uh-huh. And when I saw this place, it was in shambles. But the real estate man took me up on the roof, and this gorgeous boat was going by, and it was a gorgeous day like this. And I thought, oh boy, what I can do with that place, you know. Because this is two apartments that we took over.

JUDITH: I see. And how old is this building then?

LILLIAN: It was built in ‘57, and we bought it in ‘64. But they just let it … it was just trashed.

JUDITH: Right. But it's not a Victorian that you've rebuilt?

LILLIAN: No. And we, uh, improved the apartments below.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: Put in new stoves and, uh, put two 50-gallon water heaters up on top. And took all the water heaters out of each apartment, and made closets out of that space.

JUDITH: And you've come through the earthquakes pretty well?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah, uh-huh. Real well. We’re on rock here, see?

JUDITH: And it's so quiet here on these alleys...

LILLIAN: Yes, isn’t it?

JUDITH: …you never hear any noise.

LILLIAN: Yeah, that's right. You just don't hear all the … Uh, I would love to see, uh, Alcatraz become a casino.

JUDITH: [laughter]

LILLIAN: Wouldn't that be…?

JUDITH: Well, that might be in the offing.

LILLIAN: Well, the federal government owns it, but I don't think they want to sell it. But, uh, that would … you know what that would bring tax-wise to this…

JUDITH: The revenue, yeah.

LILLIAN: Oh, god. And have it classy, you know. You gotta to dress up and have a good show, just like Vegas used to be. Vegas is terrible now.

JUDITH: I gather, yeah.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Someone said they were on a ship recently where you had to dress for dinner. My optometrist down the street … Dr. Chong. He said he and his wife went up to Alaska on a ship and they had to dress in a tux for dinner. I thought that was very nice.

LILLIAN: Yeah, it is.

JUDITH: And you have a wonderful view of the curlicue street … Lombard…

LILLIAN: Uh-huh.

JUDITH: …from here. And it looks lovely now that it's been opened and restored.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Well, this is very nice and helpful. And if you have anything else that you think of…

[Transcriber’s note: there is a break in the recording here. When the recording resumes, there are some unintelligible words]

JUDITH: You had some mulberry trees with silkworms?

LILLIAN: No. She would get the leaves, and she'd spread it out and have the worms, you know. And take the silk from them.

[Transcriber’s note: there is a break in the recording here. When the recording resumes, there are some unintelligible words]

LILLIAN: …spin the silk into thread.

JUDITH: Really?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: So they made their own silk threads?

LILLIAN: Mm-hmm.

JUDITH: And then did they weave the silk or have someone weave it into cloth?

LILLIAN: Yeah, she'd have somebody do it. Some lady was doing it.

JUDITH: Did they also spin wool and cotton?

LILLIAN: No … see, I'm talking about Henry Bussy here and his chauffeur. He’d come to our store and [unintelligible word]. And he’d have the uniform on with all the scrambled eggs up here, you know? [chuckles] [Transcriber’s note: Henry Busse (1894 – 1955) was a German-born jazz trumpeter and bandleader.]

JUDITH: Who was Henry Busse? Was he just a…?

LILLIAN: [00:013:12] A bandleader.

JUDITH: Oh, he was a bandleader, right. Uh-huh. You mentioned that.

LILLIAN: Well, we also had the Miss America and Miss Europe beauty contest.

JUDITH: Oh, that's marvelous. In Galveston?

LILLIAN: In Galveston. And, uh, when … Miss Europe beauty contest, Miss Austria, came to our store. And my mother and dad had her in the kitchen. And when she went back to Austria, she sent ‘em a cutlery set. ‘Cause they're famous for their knives and stuff.

JUDITH: Right. Oh, that's fascinating.

LILLIAN: Uh-huh.

JUDITH: Did you … do you feel comfortable lending me those? And I can copy ‘em and bring ‘em back? [Transcriber’s note: Judith is referring here to photos that she plans to copy]

LILLIAN: The only thing is I’m so worried that you can't make out. ‘Cause, you know I did this in bed.

JUDITH: Yeah, but they look pretty, uh, I think we could read that all right. And that would be very good to add to the, uh, to the text. And at such time as it's transcribed.

LILLIAN: So I'm talking about the girls coming up to the bedroom.

JUDITH: Oh, that's so charming. Yes.

LILLIAN: Yeah. You can bring it back to me or mail it to me or whatever.

JUDITH: Alright, I'll do that.

LILLIAN: See, I haven't … what it is you think of things, you know, after you've written something and shoot it. So now I have been...

JUDITH: Oh, yes, yes. True … are they in order, the, uh, pages?

LILLIAN: The members that should be on here or shouldn't they? Have you got a pen there?

JUDITH: Sure.

[Transcriber’s note: there is a break in the recording here]

JUDITH: … [two or three unintelligible words here] owned a bar in Galveston or…?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah, uh-huh ... Both of my brothers did.

JUDITH: Uh-huh. So did they … did the rest of your family stay in Galveston?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah, all of them.

JUDITH: Except you.

LILLIAN: Yeah. I'm going to give you these and just know… [Transcriber’s note: there is a break in the recording here. Prior to break, Lillian seems to be referring to photos she is lending to Judith] …proud of them. And when the girls went to church, he wanted them to look just so. So, anyway, this is what she used to wear to church.

JUDITH: Your mother? A beautiful piece of black lace for her head.

LILLIAN: Uh-huh. Right.

JUDITH: And that was her beautiful church, uh, lace.

LILLIAN: Uh-huh.

JUDITH: Isn't that nice that you still have it? And her brothers were all handsome you say?

LILLIAN: Yeah. And I … her sisters, too. I met a few of her sisters. One was from South America.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: One was in Montana. I assume that they’re passed away ‘cause, you know, that's pretty old.

JUDITH: Uh, did any others of her or your father's family come over to America?

LILLIAN: Oh, they all came. A lot of ‘em. My mom's people came over. But we … like my mother, had a brother here in San Bruno. That's when we lived in Galveston.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: And then when I first moved here, we didn't meet him, and my mother met him. We all had dinner together. The last we saw of him. Then she had another brother that was in the area someplace. But he was sort of a bum, according to the other brother.

JUDITH: [chuckles]

LILLIAN: And then she had a sister in South America. One in Galveston. One in Montana. Um … one in Chicago … I did say Chicago, didn't I?

JUDITH: Yes, ‘cause that's where they went for their honeymoon.

LILLIAN: Yes. And I don't know where the others are. I'm sure they're all gone because, you know, she was…

JUDITH: So all … many of them came from Lucca? And when did they come over from Lucca, by the way? Do you … well, let's see. You said that was in, uh, when were they married then? When did they come?

LILLIAN: Yeah, I don't know when they were married, but they…

JUDITH: They came to…?

LILLIAN: … they died in their 80s, so…

JUDITH: OK.

LILLIAN: Say they were 20. And my mom's been gone about…

JUDITH: They died in what years?

LILLIAN: Uh, my mom's been gone about 30 years, so…

JUDITH: Oh, in the 1960s then?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: And, uh, they came here when they were in their 20s?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Ok, well we can figure that out, so … oh, let's see, that would have been … they were in their 80s and 60 years. They came over around 1900 then?

LILLIAN: I would say. Because I was born in 1916.

JUDITH: Right. So they came to America about 1900?

LILLIAN: Approximately, you know. In that area.

JUDITH: OK. And that's when most of the others came, about the turn of the century? The others in the family?

LILLIAN: [00:17:41] Uh, I think it depended on their age. Like my uncle that was in South City. [Transcriber’s note: Lillian is referring here to South San Francisco] He came over here when he was 13. And he started in Chicago and worked on the railroad tracks as they were building them across country. And that's how he got to California.

JUDITH: Ah-ha. That was a common thing for both Italian and Irish immigrants…

LILLIAN: That’s right.

JUDITH: …to work on the railroad, laying the railroad.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: OK. So they did that as well.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: Well, it's a classic American story, isn't it?

LILLIAN: You know, and none of these people were on welfare or anything, you know, they didn't ask for anything.

JUDITH: No. They all worked. They found work and they worked hard. And so you don't remember if your mother had a middle name?

LILLIAN: I don't, uh-hmm.

JUDITH: She probably had some...

LILLIAN: I'm sure she did.

JUDITH: …christening names … Right. Uh, but you sound as if you were very close to both your parents?

LILLIAN: Oh, yeah, I was. Uh-huh.

JUDITH: And her name was Nannini?

LILLIAN: Yeah. Nannini.

JUDITH: OK. Very good. And we should call her a housewife and storekeeper as well?

LILLIAN: Well, she ran the store and sewed our clothes and cooked and…

JUDITH: Wow. Homemaker.

LILLIAN: She wasn't bored, like so many women are today.

JUDITH: She didn't sit around and watch the soap operas on television.

LILLIAN: No, she sure didn’t.

JUDITH: [laughter]

LILLIAN: So she got up at six in the morning to open the store. And then my dad would get up around 10. And then right after our big dinner, my mom would go to bed for a couple of hours.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: …and then they’d close the store at midnight.

JUDITH: Midnight!?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: So it was open from 6 a.m. to midnight?

LILLIAN: That's right. And my aunt and uncle would come over and they’d, uh, play a game like bingo in the kitchen. And every time somebody came in, you'd hear the door slam. So they'd get up in the store, ‘cause their kitchen was right next to the store part.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: And they'd go in and wait on the people. And then when they left, they’d go back and play bingo. [laughter]

JUDITH: Isn't that wonderful? Did they did the men play anything like bocce ball…

LILLIAN: No.

JUDITH: …the way the Italians did here?

LILLIAN: No, ‘cause they didn't have time. See, the Italians here were actually working for Levi Strauss, and they had like an eight to five job.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: Where when you got a business, you don't … have that kind of time.

JUDITH: Uh-huh.

LILLIAN: Your Sundays are, uh, tied up because your store is open.

JUDITH: Absolutely.

LILLIAN: You got to be there.

JUDITH: Yeah.

LILLIAN: [00:20:06] I remember Father Ryan come to our store one time. “Mrs. Mencacci, why haven’t your girls come to church today?” She says, “’cause I need them in the store.” [laughter]

JUDITH: Uh-huh. Did your mother go to church, and you all went to church every day when you were young?

LILLIAN: No.

JUDITH: …to mass?

LILLIAN: No. My sister and I would go to mass, but some Sundays we wouldn't.

JUDITH: Uh-huh. Oh, so that was on a Sunday?

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: The store was open on Sundays?

LILLIAN: Oh, absolutely.

JUDITH: Seven days a week?

LILLIAN: Absolutely.

JUDITH: My word!

LILLIAN: Absolutely. My sister and I would walk a mile to the movies. We thought nothing of it.

JUDITH: Sure.

LILLIAN: Go to the movies, then go next door and have a chocolate ice cream soda. That was such a treat. And then walk back home.

JUDITH: Right.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: So there was a movie, but a long way away?

LILLIAN: Yeah, that's right. But we didn't have a car. And you didn’t expect a car.

JUDITH: You never grew up with a car?

LILLIAN: No. You don't expect those things.

JUDITH: Right.

LILLIAN: [00:20:59] Like the kids gave me a birthday here last month. And, uh, they had a birthday cake for me. They were all shocked that I said “that's my first birthday cake.” And it is my first birthday cake.

JUDITH: When you were 80 years old? Because you worked all the day you didn't have birthday parties?

LILLIAN: I didn't even know the birthday of my brothers and sisters. Who paid attention to stuff like that? It was a lot of hogwash. [chuckles] You were born, so that's it.

JUDITH: How interesting. So birthdays weren't big celebratory events?

LILLIAN: No. No way.

JUDITH: But Christmas was?

LILLIAN: Well, yes. My … second oldest brother, he would always bring me a toy or something. He was the only one that would bring me a toy. We never had a tree and all that. Never! So I told the kids, I said “you don't know how good poverty is.” It makes you appreciate things.

JUDITH: Uh-hmm.

LILLIAN: Not expect ‘em, you know…

JUDITH: No.

LILLIAN: …just handed to me.

JUDITH: So a gift at Christmas was quite special. Did you make things for each other for Christmas?

LILLIAN: No.

JUDITH: OK. But everybody would sort of save up and get some little...?

LILLIAN: No, we never gave gifts.

JUDITH: Oh, you just didn't exchange gifts?

LILLIAN: No, just didn't exchange gifts.

JUDITH: You didn't have...?

LILLIAN: Just another day. [laughter]

JUDITH: Really?

LILLIAN: Yeah. We didn't think anything of it.

JUDITH: No.

LILLIAN: No.

JUDITH: You didn't miss it or…? Right.

LILLIAN: That's why, you know, I send very few cards out. I send Christmas cards out, but not birthday cards and all that. And I know that people think I'm weird, you know, but I wasn't raised that way.

JUDITH: No, of course not.

LILLIAN: Balloons and all that. What the hell you want balloons for?

JUDITH: Right. Well, that's very interesting. You had your first cake at…

LILLIAN: My first birthday cake. Yeah.

JUDITH: I hope you enjoyed it.

LILLIAN: [00:22:41] I did. [laughter]

JUDITH: Well, that's great. Well, I appreciate your lending...

[Transcriber’s note: there is a break in the recording here. When recording resumes, Judith is talking to Lillian about the North Beach Malt House at 445 Francisco Street in North Beach, which is visible from Judith’s home.]

JUDITH: [00:22:48] …that's the oldest malt factory west of the Mississippi…

LILLIAN: It is, huh?

JUDITH: …as you may know. And it is, uh, it was operating until about 1982. And it made hops for … uh, it made malt for Anchor Steam beer and other breweries. And the Beltline Railroad came down the wharf and right around… [Transcriber’s note: Per Wikipedia, the San Francisco Belt Railroad was a short-line railroad along the Embarcadero that began service in 1889 and ceased operation in 1993. The railroad connected the Port of San Francisco to many waterfront docks and to industries and warehouses which were adjacent to the waterfront.]

LILLIAN: I remember seeing it.

JUDITH: …and then. I think the tracks are still in front of it, there on Francisco.

LILLIAN: [unintelligible words]

JUDITH: Yeah. Six o’clock in the morning. And then they'd have those cotto-belt trains with hops from the South, you know, used for making the beer there. And you could smell it [hops cooking]…

LILLIAN: Uh-huh.

JUDITH: It's been landmarked, the building.

LILLIAN: Oh, good.

JUDITH: There's some concern that it will be developed into condominiums.

LILLIAN: Oh, god.

[Transcriber’s note: there is a break in the recording here]

JUDITH: …just want to turn it into a big, rectangular, ugly condominium building. So we got it landmarked. And then we got the Planning Commission to force them to agree to maintain the vats … the great, uh, round vats…

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: What do you call ‘em? Barrell-shaped.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: But I think someday that shed will come off the top. And of course, all the appurtenances. Which actually make it interesting visually.

LILLIAN: That's right.

JUDITH: And then having it dark at night makes it very hospitable.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: But if it's full of apartments and light it will be quite different.

LILLIAN: Yeah.

JUDITH: But the walls, I'm told, are seven, eight feet thick in some places. So cutting through that will be quite a task…

LILLIAN: Oh, and how.

JUDITH: …and difficult to do.

JUDITH: [00:24:14] That ends Lillian Baldassari with Judith Robinson for the Italian oral history project on May 23rd, 1996.

[END OF INTERVIEW]